Episode 17: Di Gornall – Building supporter relationships with experiential fundraising.

Episode Notes

Many activities to raise funds for charities are successful because they’re relatively easy and can be used whatever the cause. An advantage to cake sales is that they raise money in the short-term, but a downside is they don’t necessarily help you build relationships with supporters after that.

What if the fundraising proposition itself makes a connection to your cause more likely to happen? In this episode of the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast, Rob Woods talks to Di Gornall about experiential fundraising. By this, we mean an event or way of giving that includes an experience that’s relevant to the issue your charity tackles. A particularly valuable fundraising activity for Centrepoint is the annual Sleep Out event, and Di is well-placed to explain why this is and how it helps the charity to build relationships with participants.

She also gives advice for any charity interested in developing an experiential proposition, including how to make sure it’s not tokenistic, how to gather insight and how to make sure you are measuring the right things, especially in the first year.

Takeaways

  • WHAT WE MEAN – In this episode we use the term experiential fundraising to refer to an event, product or any other proposition for raising / donating funds, that in itself brings some experience that could increase insight or inspiration.
  • RELEVANT AND OUT OF THE ORDINARY – Di feels that a key strength of Centrepoint’s Sleepout event is that to take part most participants move outside their comfort zone, they do something out of their ordinary routine.
  • NOT THE SAME – It is important to stress that in doing something different, ie spending a night outside in November, what participants experience is not the same as the challenges faced by people who are homeless.
  • GIVES INSIGHT – Nevertheless, in doing this activity that is both uncomfortable and relevant, they often gain insights into the issue of homelessness more powerfully than if they took part in a generic fundraising activity like a cake sale or 10K run.
  • INSPIRED TO MEET AGAIN – When someone from a company has experienced Sleep Out they are much more likely to want to meet for a follow-up coffee, which of course is a key building block of deeper, longer relationships. This is in part due to the relaxed and unusual atmosphere at the event (compared to an orthodox business setting).
  • PEOPLE AND A PLAN – This requires both resources (enough people on the night) and organisation (careful planning as to who will look after who) to tell stories and chat.
  • ADVICE – For a charity considering an experiential fundraising proposition or event, Di advises:
  • INSIGHT – Research as thoroughly as you can in the environment where your initiative will be happening;
  • DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES and BACKABLE – Consult a wide variety of stakeholders, not least to make sure the proposition is appropriate (as opposed, for instance, to tokenistic) and that people can get behind / share.
  • WHAT TO MEASURE – From the start, decide on the purpose of the event, and appropriate outcomes that you will use to measure success. Too often promising initiatives are cancelled after the first year, because of unrealistic expectations of return on investment.
  • OTHER EXAMPLES – We spent much of this episode talking about an event that is experiential, but the concept of using or creating a relevant experience to aid fundraising can be helpful in other types of proposition. We briefly discussed: Water Aid’s Hope Locker in swimming pools; DEC using theatre and Choose Love’s pop-up shops that enable you to see and feel what you’er buying to help refugees.

Quotes

‘The really great benefit of the event is that during the evening, the people who are there learn a lot about homelessness.’

Di Gornall

‘The key is to gain insight from the widest number of stakeholders you can.’

Di Gornall

‘Just playing a different role, accessing a slightly different part of your character for a only a few hours, has a weird power to affect you and cause you to get different insights.’

Rob Woods

On Choose Love: ‘It was an absolutely uplifting experience to see something so tangible and the storytelling so vivid and the products I could buy for refugees so relevant.’

Di Gornall

Further resources

  • Water Aid’s Hope Locker – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaioEj4wtjo
  • A key element in creating a successful product or event is your process for gathering insight. For excellent advice to help you in this area, check out Episode 10 and Episode 11 with the very wise Lesley Pinder, Head of Supporter Experience at the British Red Cross.
Transcript of Episode 17

Rob:

Hello, my name is Rob Woods and welcome to Episode 17 of the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast. This is the show for anyone who works in charity fundraising and you want ideas for how to really enjoy their job, raise more money, and make a bigger difference. And if you’re searching for ideas to strengthen your relationships with supporters or to help them connect with your cause at a deeper level, then I think you’ll find today’s episode really interesting. Because today we’re looking at experiential fundraising. By this, I mean creating an event or some other way of supporting that includes an experience that makes it easier for supporters to get an insight into your cause. Obviously it’s possible for someone to attend a pub quiz or Fun Run and hear inspiring stories, but what if the fundraising proposition itself makes this connection to your cause more likely to happen.

For this episode, I was delighted to be able to talk to Di Gornall, an outstanding fundraiser who’s the Director of Fundraising at Centrepoint. I was keen to talk to Di to find out about their very successful Sleep Out event from the outside. It makes sense to me that a charity addressing homelessness should be doing so well through an event that involves supporters spending a cold night outside without the comforts of home in the middle of November. But I wanted to hear Di’s perspective on why it works so well and how she makes sure it’s not disrespectful or tokenistic. And to see if there are some insights that can be applied to charities with a completely different cause. I really enjoyed hearing Di’s take on how to make experiential fundraising work and I hope that you do too.

This episode of the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast is brought to you by the Bright Spot Members Club. As a practical alternative to one of conferences and courses whose impact can fade all too quickly. The member’s club is not online resource that gives you ongoing access to a whole library of video training courses, monthly coaching, webinars, and live training events. It’s all designed to help you learn, enjoy your job, and raise more money. To join the 300 fundraisers already in the club or just to find out more, go to brightspotfundraising.co.uk.

Rob:

Well, hello Di Gornall, how are you?

Di:

Hello. I’m very well, how are you Rob?

Rob:

Very well thank you. It’s the end of another busy week, but I’m very well thank you. And I’m ever so excited to be talking to you on the podcast. Thank you for making time for it. Just before we move into the key content, I just want to, for the listeners to understand your role. So you and I, I think we first worked together when you were, what was then Arthritis Care, you were director of fundraising there and then that became Versus Arthritis, but now you’re director of fundraising at Centrepoint. Is that right?

Di:

That’s right. And not being that just over 18 months, something like that. So it still feels relatively new, believe it or not.

Rob:

Yes. So one reason I was really keen to talk is we spoke the other day and I was so pleased for you and the team. It’s still a relatively difficult fundraising environment out there. And I gather that you and your team at Centrepoint should be very pleased with yourselves because income is growing. Congratulations.

Di:

Thank you.

Rob:

And in particular, I wanted to spend this podcast thinking about the concept of experiential fundraising. I know experiential marketing is a new buzz word out there, but what I really mean by this is if there’s something about your event or your fundraising proposition, which in some way links and is relevant to your cause or your charity more than something more generic like doing a marathon or having a bake sale. And in particular I was interested in your Sleep Out and how well that’s doing and your thoughts about why it might be doing so well and what the listeners could learn from that. The concept of making things really fit between the fundraising proposition and whatever cause they’re at. So initially, how is your Sleep Out going? How is the most recent one?

Di:

Yes, great. So back in November was our last Sleep Out. We had six events across the UK, two in London and four outside of London. And across the board we’re seeing an increase in gross income. Not across all events, but across the portfolio we have seen income rise and at a reasonable rate, 8% across the portfolio. We have some additional costs this year, we had additional competition in the marketplace. So that did take a hit on that. But we understand why that is because we have additional costs we needed to manage. So we’re pretty comfortable with that. But the gross increase this year definitely makes me believe that this is something we just need to keep investing in and keeping on top of and being really clear across the UK and those different events making sure that we really understand your audience because one of the challenges but also opportunities is that events attract different audiences.

Di:

And I think for the purposes of this podcast talking more about what we do in London and Manchester, which is really a corporate audience where teams come along and take part. And the London one for example, has been established now for 15 years. So it’s had a long time to grow. But nevertheless, we’re still in innovating within that space. So I think it’d be interesting for listeners to hear a bit about that, which would be good.

Rob:

Why you think this event right now is likely to be more successful for you than events which have no over linked to your cause. But just before we get into that, maybe we can imagine what this event consists of, but at its simplest, could you just state how that event works?

Di:

Yes, so people sign up in the usual way and what they’re signing up for is a night that is essentially an evening and night of sleeping without the benefit of a bed. They’re protected from the very harshest developments because there is a marquee, but essentially are sleeping on pretty rough terrain without any heating. And they don’t leave the site usually until sort of 5:00 in the morning, by which time they’re pretty cold and tired. So the aim of the event isn’t to mimic rough sleeping, and I think that’s really important to emphasize, but it is aiming to bring people closer to the cause of homelessness and trigger people in terms of thinking about some of the challenges that they might experience. So we know people tell us, one participant was saying how even from when the point where she left her front door, she was feeling some of that shame and embarrassment about having her sleeping bag with her on the bus.

The fact that she was wearing quite rough clothes to come in because it can be quite muddy and not feeling like a professional anymore, feeling very much as though she was in a different part of society from the people that were also traveling by bus and tube and in a very different space. So right from the start, people leave that front door to arriving at site and then having a tough night and cold nights sleep. I think it really triggers an emotional response in a lot of individuals. Which is really helpful for us in terms of then relationship building and then people’s longevity with Centrepoint.

Rob:

So what I find so interesting about that story you’ve said, and I think this gets to the heart of just why there might just be something so powerful and different to many other fundraising events and propositions, is intellectually she shouldn’t be thinking that, she still has a safe home. She still has presumably some level of income. She’s not going to be in any danger that evening.

Di:

No.

Rob:

Deep down she has things that enabled one to survive and do well in life. But just the act of… I guess it’s just like a powerful role play or any of our listeners do amateur dramatics, just the act of inhabiting a slightly different character for literally a few hours has a weird power to affect a human being and cause them to get different insights and think and feel differently compared to if they just read about it or talk about it intellectually.

Di:

Exactly. I think that’s absolutely true. And people going outside of their comfort zone in that way on that evening means that when people arrive at Sleep Out, they are in a space where they’re all slightly outside their comfort zone, they’re all slightly uncomfortable. They don’t really know how they’re going to survive that evening in terms of the cold, in terms of how they feel and that’s what brings a great togetherness within that group of people experiencing a similar discomfort all at the same time, all in aide of a really amazing cause.

Rob:

And so do you think someone getting involved in this event for you compared to someone doing a bake sale or doing a Fun Run or something, have you noticed that the extra ‘aha’ moment and communal, we were uncomfortable but we did it together. Have you noticed that that makes it easier to get people to sign up or easier to get people to collect sponsorship after the event or… I don’t know the level of analysis. Do people tend to get sponsored more for this event than for others, I don’t know how much analysis is possible, what’s your observation as to the various fundraising benefits? Because it’s harder to do this event then to many other things, but why do you think it might be worth it in your case?

Di:

Yes, so the average gift for Sleep Out is not dissimilar to something like half marathon, let’s say. And actually for a half-marathon, most people have to train for months. Whereas a Sleep Out, this is one night which is uncomfortable and outside your comfort zone and slightly disorientating, but it is only one night. So those things balance themselves often. And average gifts comes in at a few, between £300-£500 usually. I think though, the really great benefit for Centrepoint is that during the evening, the people who are there learn a lot about homelessness. The team are going around and talking to everybody first and foremost. But also we have young people there talking about their experiences and we have staff who work with young people talking about some of the issues those young people are experiencing. So there’s a real emphasis on ensuring that people leave understanding more.

I think the other thing that happens is that often very early in the morning… So last November, somebody was talking about their experiences when they woke up and just being so grateful that they had a shower to go to, that they had a home to go to, that they had a purposeful day in front of them and they were thinking specifically about somebody who didn’t have anywhere to go at best can probably go and keep warm in McDonald’s or somewhere like that. But actually, and with nothing to do particularly between 5:00 and 8:00 before the world awakes. So that period of time is quite challenging emotionally I think for quite a lot of people there where they’re thinking about how lucky they are in their lives and actually how challenging that is if you are either rough sleeping or homeless at that point without structure to your day that you can really get hold of.

So all of that together makes this a really brilliant platform for developing longer term relationships. Whether that’s with individuals, if it’s a more community focused event or the corporate event where we’re looking for new business in terms of our corporate partnerships. And what we find is that the conversations that we’re having with people who come to Centrepoint who are new, it’s actually, it’s really easy to get a follow up coffee. They’re there, they’re team building, they’ve got their team around them and you go up and you thank them for being there. You’re hoping that they have a really, really interesting and experiential night and that we would love to speak to them and have a coffee in the New Year. Is that possible? Can we set a date? And actually it makes that whole conversation really, really positive. Partly because of course it’s also a very laid back, relaxed atmosphere. Everybody is in jeans and trainers and it’s not a business meeting where you’re having to negotiate that. It’s very much a very relaxed environment that you can really have to start developing really good relationships.

Rob:

Yes, I gather some of your other events around the country are more community focused and less about the corporate. But if we could just stick with the corporate one for now, is there anything else you’ve learned or discovered that might help the listeners, even if the event or tactic they come up with isn’t so experiential like this, but anything else you’ve discovered in terms of generating that first cup of coffee, that first interesting conversation with a corporate?

Di:

Yes. So I think for us, we definitely resource up that night. And we are very clear who we expect to steward whom and right from the word go, people are stewarded onto site. So when people arrive, a corporate fundraiser usually, but also other volunteers from across the organization, we’ll actually take those individuals to their sleeping quarters, show them around the site, talk them through the evening and already start the discussion about next steps. Because actually if you imagine that you’re in essentially a field with a couple of very large marquees and everybody in November with a woolly hat on and a very large coat, it’s actually very hard to know who you should be stewarding later on. And so that very early doors stewardship when people arrive and you know what organization they work for and you know what the next steps need to be in terms of that relationship, those are really key moments when they first arrived to make sure you have that initial conversation.

Rob:

Yes, and so surprise, surprise, one of the keys is just being really organized and getting the detail right of who meets who. Getting that wrong could start a relationship personally or with the charity off on the really on the wrong foot. But working hard to get it right and pay attention to it, I sounds to me like it makes all the difference and then you’re already, you’re starting to get to know people and starting a relationship.

Di:

Absolutely that. And I suppose it’s worth noting of course that then you need to follow through afterwards and of course everyone was pretty tired. But actually the event itself is great. A lot of the benefits of Sleep Out is what happens next in that corporate domain and having enough people to then also pick up the phone and follow up and make sure that they all happen is really important.

Rob:

Yes. I was also really interested that you work hard to make the event as interesting as possible, so that requires work to quite deliberately arrange for people to be there giving talks or people who have been sleeping rough in the past explaining their situation. All of that takes care and hard work to get right at its simplest. I think for the listeners, I know that not all charities can arrange volunteering opportunities at all in any way, but I know of some charities where they do have volunteering opportunities, for instance, come and sort clothes in our warehouse for our shops or whatever, and I’ve noticed how often that volunteering experience is really dull and underwhelming.

A couple of the charities I’ve worked with have just worked harder at bringing in someone who knows about the cause to give an interesting talk, or as part of the day sort the clothes alongside you. It seems to me not all of our listeners can have such a perfect match event as you’ve got but they can do some of what you’re doing. Whatever opportunity there… Be it marathons or bake sales or whatever…a little more hard work to create storytelling and Q&A opportunities during whatever event it is can go some way actually to making something experiential.

Di:

Absolutely. I agree with you. And first that’s a fundamental part of the evening actually in terms of making sure that the people really go away understanding more than they did when they arrived about the cause. And actually, without a strong basis for developing the relationship we would struggle to get those follow up coffees. So yeah, that’s a fundamental part really. And I suppose it’s worth saying, the Sleep Out for Centrepoint is this amazing collaboration across the organization.

Di:

So events fundraising team drive all the logistics for Sleep Out in London and elsewhere, but the corporate team do all the marketing and all the relationship side. And the events team see no money actually from Sleep Out. But we use their skills to drive the logistics of the event and then obviously within our service delivery functions, working closely with them, we are able to then provide the first-hand stories of young people, have young people there, have some of our frontline staff available to talk to participants and that sort of side of Sleep Out. So it does require quite a bit of internal logistics and handling and really great cross organizational communication to pull that off. And actually this year more than any other year, I’d say we did that really well and the team played a great part in making sure that everyone understood their roles and responsibilities in order to pull it off.

Rob:

Well done. And such things shouldn’t be that hard work, but the reality of the way people and organizations work left to their own devices. I know well how hard you have to work to get all of that communication right.

Di:

Yeah.

Rob:

So congratulations on everyone involved in making it work. I’m curious as to whether coming out the other side of having to work so closely together with this unifying goal. Have you noticed that that has had helpful knock on effects in terms of bringing teams together and cross team communication and so on?

Di:

Yes, in particular, thinking about supporter journey – we definitely have a long way still to go in terms of supporter journey work. But we have started looking at mid value program which we haven’t looked at before and that’s a direct collaboration between our individual giving team and high value, which is great. But also I think that the relationships are becoming a lot more open, there’s more vulnerability there. People are recognizing each other’s skill sets for what they are. So with the increased competition, for example, they share it particularly in London and Manchester, we actually relied quite a lot on our marketing team to drive some of the brand changes that we needed. We relied on the community and events teams to do quite a bit of liaison with JustGiving so that we changed the way that people were fundraising for Sleep Out as well.

So people would fundraise as teams, as well as individuals so that people could fundraise in the way they wanted to. So there was actually… We’ve seen actually a strong improvement in terms of the way people see their own very, very strong skill sets, but also refer now to others when they see the others have a stronger skill set in some areas and really maximize the use of those skills to drive the income generation, which is great actually. Really nice to see.

Rob:

It’s so valuable and powerful if we make any progress at all in those directions. So then I’ve got a question which is to get your opinion really, the truth is the vast majority of our listeners don’t work for a homelessness charity. So I hope they’re finding your experiences and our discussion interesting, but clearly not every charity can go out and do a Sleep Out. That would be exactly defeating the point I’m trying to make about finding something that fits.

Di:

I don’t want them to!

Rob:

Nevertheless, I wonder if there are some of the ingredients of what you found to make your one fit that might, again, it might not be possible for every single cause out there, but if you were to give your opinion or your food for thought on how they might, either in terms of an event, concept or some other bit of their proposition, what’s your advice are the key elements that they might take from this even if they apply it in different ways?

Di:

Yes. So I think the key to a successful experiential event is to gain the insight and thought from the widest number of stakeholders you can. So fundraisers are very focused on the money, and rightly so, but there’s a very fine line between a really successful experiential event and actually going into a space where actually the cause becomes tokenistic if you’re not careful. And that’s the last thing you want to risk for your beneficiaries or the audiences that you’re supporting. So it’s really important that you find that medium. And I think you can only find it when you have a lot of people challenging each other to make sure you get that product as right as it can be in your first year in your first].

I would also say I think that thinking about year one, as ever in year one you may lose money. I’m thinking about how you test and learn and what you’re going to test and what you’re planning to learn in year one is all important and making sure that your trustees recognize that this is a trial and that you don’t expect to make huge amounts of gross income initially. Because I think it’s very easy to go into a space where if you over promise and then it doesn’t hit its targets, it just doesn’t make it to year two, which would be really sad if actually it’s showing initial traction in the market and actually keeping it and seeing what happens in year two could be really positive. So setting expectation I think is all important.

Rob:

Yes. Just on that, is there anything else you’ve learned about that testing period either with this particular event and any interesting surprises you found or from any of your other roles where to increase the chances that… The testing initial phase was useful, we learned from it and we kept going rather than give up.

Di:

So I think preparation is everything. And do as much research as you possibly can both in terms of the environment that you’re working in, but also in terms of talking to your beneficiaries in particular and those you support to find out how this experience can be really a positive experience for the public at large or whoever your target audience is. And in fact on that point, being really clear about your target audience obviously is paramount, but also making sure that you really listen to your focus groups, for example.

And you may well want to have a think about how then you position that product to make sure that people can back it, you want people talking about it, you want people promoting it. And if they, for any reason, don’t quite feel it’s hitting the bill, then they won’t feel comfortable doing that. So there’s something about really bringing all your colleagues and volunteers and other audiences with you on the journey so they can really talk about it and sing about it. And then in terms of testing, I think, for me the big thing is thinking about being really clear about what you’re testing. We know that there are always instances where things don’t go quite how we would like and then pushing on the fact we’ve raised awareness doesn’t crack it for a fundraiser.

So there’s something about being really clear about what we are testing and how we are going to monitor and evaluate that performance. And I think got that, use other colleagues in the sector. You can’t underestimate talking to other people who have set up new products in the market. Thinking about how they set their benchmarks for success and what they were looking for at that point and really gaining as much knowledge sector wide as you can before you start out, because that will stand you in excellent stead. And we know that we’re surrounded by some hugely talented people in this sector who have done a lot of new product development before us. And we know that we are, we like to chat as fundraisers so let’s use that ability to chat and really learn from it.

Rob:

Thank you. And just before we move on to my last few questions. I just wanted to drop in for the listener. A couple of different ways of looking at experiential rather than this event. One I really liked seeing recently online was Hope Locker. I don’t know if you heard about that one.

Di:

I haven’t seen that.

Rob:

WaterAid have done it – people can check it out and I’ll put it in the episode notes. But the gist is it’s a gadget you can put in lockers at swimming pools and where normally you put a pound into the locker to make it lock and then you get the pound back at the end. There’s some electronic wizardry in there, you put the pound in and there’s a screen which shows that when you come back after your half hour swim, it gives you really strong stories and messages about during that half hour swim you will have taken on board some water and it won’t harm your health at all, but every minute a child dies somewhere because they drink some water, which is harmful, this money can be used to stop that happening.

  1. A) You’re having someone connects to the cause in an interesting context and B), a reason I really like it is you’re not having to ask them for money because they’ve already put their pound in. They’ve already lost their pound.

Di:

Yes. And great powerful stories, yes, it sounds great.

Rob:

I don’t know in depth about it, I just heard about it and from what I saw that in the tests they’ve done that seems to be making £22 per locker per week. And obviously if you’ve got a bank of 20, 30, 40 lockers, then assuming you can invest in and pay for the technology, that’s really powerful. And another one I really liked two or three years ago that the DEC, Disasters Emergency Committee, did was they invited their major donors, mid level donors, corporate partners and so on, other stakeholders, to a theatrical experience in a warehouse. And they had some actors to create an experience for the audience of what happens when an earthquake strikes. And there were various scenes, there was the scene of what happens on the ground and there’s the scene that what happens in the warehousing and there’s the scene of as you’re going across on the ship to take the tents out or do whatever, and it was immensely powerful I gather.

Well maybe your version of that is not to go out and find a playwright and 10 actors, but maybe your local college does have a drama course and there’s some students that might like to do something like that as a project for you. As with so many of the Bright Spot ideas that inspire me, I know that not every listener can do exactly what you’ve done with Sleep Out…

Di:

No, of course.

Rob:

… But I have hope there is something about the idea that might inspire them. What essence could they take of what actually is at the heart of the way it’s working. Similarly, not many of our listeners are going to have access to that budget or technology that WaterAid are harnessing so effectively, but maybe it could cause us to think of just beyond the normal paradigms and normal contexts in which we ask for a fundraising proposition to take place, but just think a little “outside the box.” Where could something about our cause, the concept of our cause or what our beneficiaries experience, is there somewhere in our supporters lifestyle where we could actually go and help them at some other level gets an aha moment?

How you would respond to that kind of way of approaching this overall topic?

Di:

And I think it’s worth from all of those things that you’ve just mentioned, experiential isn’t necessarily about events. I mean Sleep Out is an event. If I think about Choose Love, which had the popup shop in Soho a year, last Christmas, where you could go in and buy virtual gifts for refugees. It was an absolutely, for me, a really uplifting experience to see something so tangible and the storytelling so vivid and the products that I could buy for refugees being so relevant, so appropriate for the work that they were doing. And it was really, it was just lovely to see something new and refreshing in that space. And it is hard. It takes a lot of thought and a lot of determination to find a new way of portraying our causes. But hopefully that thinking would enable you to do that, which would be really great. Really great.

Rob:

So we need to finish fairly soon Di, thank you so much for these ideas. In case people want to get in touch or send some feedback or whatever. Are you on Twitter and if so, what’s your Twitter name and or LinkedIn, how could people get in touch?

Di:

Yeah, LinkedIn is best. I’m easy to find. My surname – GORNALL – is quite unusual so just find me on LinkedIn and do connect and ask me anything you’d like. That would be great.

Rob:

Very good. So Di, thank you so much. You’re as busy as ever at the moment and given up a really big chunk of time to share your thoughts about the sleep night and other things besides. I really appreciate it. I look forward to catching up again soon. Thank you. Di Gornall. Goodbye.

Di:

Thanks so much. Bye Rob.

Rob:

Bye…So there are Di’s reflections on what makes Centrepoint’s Sleep Out event so important to their fundraising success. And her idea is to make an experiential event or proposition of work in other situations. If you’d like to see a summary of these ideas, do check out the episode notes I’ve put together on my website, which is brightspotfundraising.co.uk. And if you found today’s episode helpful, please do share it with your friends and colleagues so these sessions can reach and help more charities. If you’d like to see a film we made of the full interview, including what Di has learned about making decisions strategically when managing a portfolio of income streams as well as the broader insights and influences that have helped her extensive career, I’ve posted the full interview in the Bright Spot Members Club.

If you’re not a member of the club yet that you’d like to find out more about how to access this whole library of training resources, coaching webinars and events, you can find out all about it at brightspotmembersclub.co.uk/join. Lastly, thank you so much for listening today. I really appreciate the effort it takes as a fundraiser or a leader to keep on learning. And I hope you found today’s session was helpful. Have a great week, and I look forward to speaking to you next week with another Bright Spot interview.