Episode 18: Jane Curtis – Event fundraising during a pandemic; some responses

Episode Notes

As many charities are pushed to the limit in how they serve their beneficiaries during the current global pandemic, charities are also searching for ways to respond to unprecedented threats to fundraising income. In the short term, an obvious casualty is the loss in income due to cancelled events.

In this interview recorded on 17th March 2020, I talk to event fundraising expert Jane Curtis. Though many events will need to be cancelled, I wanted her advice about ways we can respond to the challenges, for instance, in how we stay in touch with participants; in adapting existing events to virtual versions, and finding challenges that meet new needs in a population that can’t go out.

I also really appreciated Jane’s ideas for things we can do to increase chances of fundraising success in the medium and long-term, such as gathering insight and deciding to keep learning, even in these tough times. I really enjoyed my conversation with Jane and hope you find our discussion is helpful food for thought as you are stuck at home, thinking through ways to respond to these difficult challenges.

Key takeaways

  • Clearly the live events charities had planned for the next few months have had to be cancelled. In this discussion we explore some options for fundraisers to respond.
  • PHONE WHERE POSSIBLE – When you already have participants registered for any of your events, and where you have their phone number, if you need to cancel, be sure to contact them by phone rather than rely on email. You can find out how they’re doing right now, and explain how the charity and its beneficiaries are / are not coping. And find out whether they’d like to potentially do the event in due course. And if appropriate, you can let them know about any emergency appeal you are launching. James Wright (Head of Public Events at Sue Ryder) worked with his team heard about the cancellation of the London Marathon at 5pm on the Friday evening. They immediately called all the runners and explained the situation. The runners really appreciated the swiftness and honesty of those calls, and are now more likely to still fundraise and run in the autumn.
  • VIRTUAL EVENT – Explore whether some of your events could go ahead but people take part from their own home. Eg exercise events such as runs; cycling; or music events where the content could be streamed.
  • COMMUNITY/ COMPETITION – If a virtual event is possible, explore options for software than can help people feel connected to each other eg Strava or Mapmyrun. One powerful driver in many events is a sense of competition, so the features of ranking in a virtual race and rewards and status for who gets to wear the yellow jersey for raising sponsorship are also worth exploring.
  • BEFORE AND AFTER – You can also add more value / connection to improve the experience through Facebook and Whatsapp groups and by creating medals and certificates. An option is to check out Realbuzz.com for help sorting out medals.
  • AUTUMN – At the time of publishing, it’s probably worth continuing to at least plan for events to take place from the summer onwards, (ie don’t cancel those before you need to) although beware pushing too many events into one potentially over-cluttered period in the autumn.
  • NEW EVENT IDEAS TO MEET NEW NEEDS – If you are looking for new things people could do to raise money, start with gathering sound insight into what problems and needs your target market have now. Eg with children at home; adults too unable to go out to work and connect with colleagues and friends, what opportunities does that give you to create events that solve those new problems / meet those needs. One charity we know has swiftly created a new 30 day home fitness challenge event, which it is offering to everyone who would have taken part in other live events over the spring and summer.
  • EVENTS ARE GOOD FOR PEOPLE – The most important thing to remember is that a) if your supporters cared about your cause before, they probably still care just as much now, in spite of the pandemic and b) they are now hungrier than ever for connection and camaraderie; and they are in danger of getting bored and unfit; and in times of trouble it is even more important to be able to help / contribute to solve problems they care about. Staying in touch and offering them ways to support you can help them meet all these important human needs.

Transcript of Episode 18

Rob:

Hey there, this is Rob Woods and welcome to Episode 18 of the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast. This is the show for anyone who works in charity fundraising and who wants ideas and inspiration for how to enjoy their job, raise more money, and make a bigger difference. And I’m recording this on Tuesday the 17th of March. And so if you are listening to this, you are almost certainly now working from home. Just the last few days everything has ramped up in terms of the effect of the spread of the Coronavirus across the UK, across the world. And that means as you’re well aware that the environment in which charities are operating, and in which fundraisers are asked to operate has been completely transformed to what we used to do. And as this is the first chance I’ve had to put together some content reacting, or rather responding to this new reality, and potentially food for thought and giving you some ideas for how you might respond.

Rob:

In today’s show, I wanted to look at event fundraising because charities will have had to cancel most of their upcoming events for the next three, four months and beyond. The London Marathon has been cancelled. Either things were were cancelled by someone else or you have had to cancel them. Because people are social isolating or they’re working from home and they can’t meet together in large groups. So although I appreciate lots of what charities are having to do now, not even worry about fundraising. It’s about deliver services at this crucial time. If there are fundraisers who are able to focus on the day job of fundraising. I think one of the major problems is we’re about to lose all of this event income that we were planning, and we’re expecting to receive in the spring. Some of the problems that creates, I agree, are not solvable. But nevertheless, I wanted to talk to someone who’s an expert in fundraising events to get her view on what’s going on. And just to get any ideas she’s got for how we might respond or mitigate some of the problems that we are facing.

And so in a moment you’re going to hear an interview I did just today at short notice with Jane Curtis who is a hugely experienced event fundraiser. Just one more thing before I play you that interview. One of the topics that Jane and I talked about in the conversation, but which got disturbed by the poor sound quality in my recording, was a really crucial principle I think. Which was, when you are having to cancel events rather than only send an email, or a letter, or some kind of written communication.

A crucial principle we talked about is the importance of if you do have their phone number, picking up the phone to each and every of those people and talking to them about the situation and why it’s being canceled. There’s an excellent fundraiser that I know who did that and made calls to almost all of the London Marathon participants that he was able to get through to. And every single one he got through to, they said they were understanding and when he asked, would you potentially be willing to still raise money for us if and when we do the marathon in the autumn?

Of course they all said yes. Now as obvious as that sounds, I want you to see firstly how at this difficult time we could have thought we could just get away with sending an email. Because we had other things to worry about. But also, could you see that in terms of Professor Robert Cialdini’s commitment and consistency principle, someone saying out loud to you that they still want to support you.

All that research by Cialdini and others shows that that clearly has increased the chances that in due course, people are more likely to stay supporting you even if many months down the line. So A that’s good for fundraising income longterm. And B just think of the impact that has on the fundraiser who had those conversations. How that’s going to help them be more optimistic and have hope, that in due course, as in when possible people still do care. And they are going to be wanting to try to help. And knowing that, because of those conversations is going to be good for your energy levels and your optimism that you bring to the other difficult tasks you’ve got to do at the moment.

So that may seem obvious, but I just need to include it there in case it falls by the wayside in the stress and pressure and everything else you’re having to prioritize at the moment. Again, some of the things that Jane and I talk about might seem obvious in a way, but nevertheless, I think there’s a lot of wisdom there. And if listening to this episode just helps you think more carefully and deeply, or indeed optimistically, or creatively about responding to what’s going on right now. I hope that proves helpful to you.

Rob:

Hello Jane Curtis, are you there?

Jane:

I am. Hi Rob.

Rob:

Hi Jane. Interesting times we are living in, but thank you ever so much for joining me on this special episode for the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast. It’s Tuesday, the 17th of March when we’re recording this. And it’s a day after another announcement from the government concerning a more stringent, not quite locked down, but almost locked down encouraging people to work from home and not go out unless they need to. Jane, I really wanted to talk to you because you’re a very experienced fundraiser. You’ve been a fundraiser for 20 years or more. And in particular people look to for excellent advice to do with organizing fundraising events. And just before we get into some advice for fundraisers out there who are looking at their fundraising portfolio and their event fundraising plans. Could you just give me a brief snapshot of your career so far? So we’ve got an understanding of your take on things.

Jane:

Yeah, sure. So I started 20 years ago at Leonard Cheshire Disability Charity in their events team…And I’ve also done interim roles at WaterAid in their events team. Independant Age, Family Action, Prostate Cancer, Pancreatic Cancer. So I’ve seen a fair few organizations of different sizes.

Rob:

Yes, you have. And I know for quite a while now you’ve been working for yourself. You’ve got a company that helps charities with their event fundraising in many different ways, consulting and helping with planning and evaluation and ways to future proof. So usually on this podcast we’ve got a bit more luxury of a relatively normal fundraising landscape in which I ask questions. Well, I’m so grateful you’ve on short notice made time for special episode. To help people with what’s going on now with the Coronavirus affecting people at a personal level, affecting on a global level, affecting charities, affecting the economy. Everything is different now, and we may not be able to come up with answers to all of people’s questions right now. But for you as a fundraising event specialist, I’d love to pick your brains on some of the things that you’ve been advising your clients in the last two or three weeks. For how they can respond to what’s going on to increase chances that income goes okay in the next few months, and also safeguard the success and capacity of the charity in the medium and longterm.

So if we could just jump in short term, what do you think are people’s options to handle the fact that certainly for the next two, three, four months they may need to be cancelling events? How can ideas A, about how they go about that and doing it in an inappropriate way that potentially still keeps supporters and suppliers on board. And B, any creative thoughts for how actually they may not have to say goodbye to that income after all. If for some kinds of events that those can be handled in a virtual way.

Jane:

So there’s been quite a lot of talk about challenge events. Obviously there’s been some big cancellations, London Marathon, Landmarks Half, and various other challenge events which have being canceled or postponed. So one of the first ideas would be looking to move some kind of challenge event online. I know that there are a fair few sort of websites that kind of help with that, say virtual mapping and kind of on the line tracking. I think Strava and Map My Run are two, but there’ll be others as well. Whether or not that’s appropriate for your organization, but to look at how that could work in practice to kind of keep that sort of community feel that those events give supporters. So obviously there’s Facebook groups that you could set up for training chats. You can post your time and your route on there. You can also advise obviously, and I think you could almost go a step further now and sort of be offering out kind of certificates and medals, and really kind of making this as easy as possible for people to do if they say wish.

That could be applied to cycling events as well. I think sleep outs and things like that, that you could potentially move to your to do within your own home. So that would be one idea for those types of events. The moving of things to the autumn I think brings its own challenges, which will need to be thought through in terms of it being a very busy potentially quarter at the end of the year. So that just needs to be thought about a little bit and making sure that we’re not completely saturating our supporters or our events teams.

Rob:

And thank you Jane. Just on that one, I guess a key thing we need to say is we’re having this conversation on the 17th of March. Just to be clear, the world is changing so fast now. So do the announcements from the governments around the world, they change daily, they change hourly. So all of the advice and ideas we’re coming up with now are things for you to bear in mind right now. But obviously you’ve got to factor in if you are listening to this episode in April or May, the world will be different. Factor in what’s going on and what the government advice is at that time for whether people are able to go out their door at all, for instance.

Jane:

Yes, exactly and I guess then we’ll have to become a little bit more creative about what they might be able to do indoors.

Rob:

But I do think it’s worth latching onto though. It may well be that some events just must be cancelled, and you can achieve no fundraising income from the event that was going to happen. But before you do that, think creatively. To what extent could I do some… We can’t congregate and our supporters can’t congregate in one place, but is there in some way, even if it’s somewhat different. Could I do a version of this event and encourage my supporters to do something and raise money for this cause which they care about? Otherwise they wouldn’t have signed up in the first place. Can I repurpose it somehow and get them doing something. And a key thing on this is, it may well be that that meets a new need for those supporters for greater connection, a greater desire to feel useful and in control, and able to make a difference to something they care about rather than a victim of circumstance.

Rob:

We shouldn’t take lightly that all events at their best are good for the participant as well as the charity. And maybe now more than ever your supporters, if you can give them the right thing to do. Actually it could be adding to their lives at a time when they most need it, when many people are really struggling with fear and understandable worry on many levels. Because they feel events are taking control of them. You put the ball back in their court and give them something useful to do. Contribution, connection, something they believe in. Actually we’re serving our supporter to think creatively and find new ways to do something.

Jane:

Absolutely. I think that’s a really good point. And is there something that we can be doing now that meets that kind of need? So our supporters like ours will also be indoors a lot more. They may have kids at home from school. What can we do to add some value to that, that could also kind of meet a fundraising need from our side as well. So I don’t know, exercise is a really good one because I think we’re going to have to kind of keep active. So what could that look like? Is that sort of doing laps around your garden, or signing up to an online class, or perhaps offering some kind of materials that would help with the kids to do at home. We talked earlier about potentially doing some kind of coloring for kids, or some planting of seeds or things like that, that we can potentially offer our supporters that meets a need for them as well.

Rob:

So I think this is really excellent stuff, Jane. And one of the many challenges for everyone right now is all of the rules have changed at once. And they keep changing. So this is not easy for the human mind. I’m discovering from my point of view. But if we go back to fundamental fundraising principles of, don’t have a product or do an event because it’s what you always do. You know Jane that the events that were always the most successful were the ones that met a need in your kind of target supporter who cares about this issue. And were perfectly suited and adapted in terms of the proposition, and the timing, and means of communication. Which suited the person that would want to do a sleep out, or suited the person that would want to do a triathlon or a sponsored fast.

The best events always were led by insight into who your participant or your supporter is. What’s hard right now, is the point of view, and the situation, and the needs of the supporter are changing very quickly. And you just said there is potentially, it may be that in the next week or two, if schools do close. There’s entirely different family set up day to day set up, set of points of frustration, and need. And if everything is changing from our supporter. So rather than a one size fits all, go and do a sponsored cycling event from home on an exercise bike. I think the key thing, as with most successful fundraising is, we’ve got to work harder than ever to understand what’s going on for the participant. Before we work out what might be a version of an event or a fundraiser that would suit them.

Jane:

Yes, absolutely. And I think that comes onto the really big point about, this is an opportunity to communicate with our supporters, to keep communicating, to be transparent. We’re all going through this together and why not start picking the phone up more and asking your supporters for their thoughts. Because the work of your charity is going to continue, and maybe even more so at this time. So start asking them for what their opinions are. They’ll certainly have some, this could be an amazing opportunity to get some really key insights into our supporters. And it’s something that could be done from home, just to talk to them about what it is that they might need right now, where we could help them. This is, yeah, absolutely rich engagement opportunity.

Rob:

And again, to state the obvious at a moment like this. It would be strange if we didn’t mention and see their point of view in relation to what’s going on in their life. In relation to the world situation and the particular health situation. But equally, they might enjoy talking about how they feel about the refugees plight right now. Or some particular type of cancer that they have always cared more about. For them to have their view heard that these other issues haven’t gone away. And everyone seems to be ignoring them. Again, you can help them share their voice about the many other issues in the world in addition to this particular health one.

Jane:

Absolutely. Yeah, totally. And I think there could be some really some extremely interesting of results that would come out of doing something like that. That could then help us understand our supporters better and potentially, at that time later down the line where we’re through the worst of this, could really impact our work going forward. So I think as difficult as this is, are there opportunities to be found at this time? And I would have thought some kind of insight gathering would be pretty high up there as an opportunity.

Rob:

I quite agree. And if people want to increase their confidence in that area, there are many sources of good advice. But one of the absolute experts I’ve interviewed is Leslie Pender in a couple of earlier episodes of this podcast. So if you want to strengthen your plan and your confidence to do some more organized insights gathering, then I recommend listening to those. And I’ll put a link in the episode notes. So thank you Jane. It’s a great opportunity potentially to not just be doing things for the short term.

When we were planning this call briefly in a conversation we had recently. You were saying an idea I really liked, which was the notion of though it can be hard, and we do need to be responding day by day to what’s going on, not least for income reasons. You were saying finding a way to get out of the short term as well. And envision ourselves or our charities looking back in six months time, or eight months time. And having come through it and survived, hopefully with some strong income stream surviving too. Do you want to just articulate that thought in a way it might be helpful?

Jane:

Yeah, and it’s something that I’ve done personally in my own work. But it’s a bit of sort of envisioning exercise, that you sort of go into a bit of, you shut your eyes if you feel comfortable to do so and you can take a few deep breaths. And you envision yourself in the future. So a time when, when all of this is over. And your back at work with your team, and you’re looking back at this time. And what worked for you and what were the really positive outcomes. And you can think quite big and think what were the best positives that came from this. That could be quite different to how you’re working now. And and I found that really helpful for my own sense of self.

Jane:

I’m not very good when I’m out of control. I don’t like having that. And at the moment it does feel a little bit like we’re out of control. So what can you control? And how you approach all of this situation, I think is one of the things you can control and have some control over. So I’d really recommend Headspace. There’s an app that you can get on your phone that you can do some very sort of simple meditation kind of exercises. And I expect if you Google visioning exercises, there’d be some tips on that. But I find that very helpful.

Rob:

Yeah. Excellent. And I think one other thing you mentioned was on that theme of control. When we feel we have no agency and no ability to impact things, we’re just at the mercy of events. That really can cause us to struggle on many levels. I liked another idea you had to me a couple of days ago of being cautious where you find out information. And if one just scrolls through your timeline on social media. You did it because your trying to be organized and understand appropriate information. But you get sucked into many kinds of messaging, some of which may be not accurate, and largely driven by fear, but sound realistic.

And the effect that can have on our mental health and our ability to feel in control. And you were suggesting, yeah at its simplest, obvious stuff like not not taking your phone or device into the bedroom, so you just can’t scroll through those at all. And secondly being cautious about going onto social media too much. But if you need to find out on a personal level, find out information about what’s going on in the world, going to a source which is likely to be more accurate. Of course even a government has to take a view on which version of the scientists’ narrative they’re going with. But going to more robust sources of information rather than ones where there is more panic and fear messaging likely to get to us.

Jane:

And I read somewhere else. Someone suggested doing a bit of a dance every hour for five minutes. And then getting back to your work. Which I thought was quite fun as well, just standing up and just doing a bit of a crazy dance to some music. Just things like that.

Rob:

I think that’s really wise. It sounds so obvious, but the changing of one state is almost essential if you want to change your mindset. So trying to just willpower yourself with a pep talk into not succumbing to fear is spectacularly hard if you do it from the same sat hunched position. Again, there’s lots of research that hunching over over a small device makes you physiologically do the body shape of more fear with hunched shoulders and looking down. And it’s harder to feel a level of control and confidence if you’re doing that. Whereas moving frequently, for instance, just standing up and stretching, or doing a dance, or going for a walk around the garden, if you have the luxury of a garden for instance. Gives you a chance of finding a different message or a different response to difficult problems you’re solving.

Jane:

And one of the good things about working from home is you’re not fixed to one space. That you can go and sit in a different area of your home. Whether that just be going and sitting next to a window, and opening the window, and getting a bit of fresh air. Or just changing your scenery slightly. So I think that’s going to really help people, especially if we’re not able to go outside as much. So yeah.

Rob:

So I guess, let’s finish fairly soon. Another thing that I took from Sean Treiner’s webinar that I saw recently was, if people are caring about your cause and they are going to do your event, or get sponsored to do something for you. Then being proactive, including the messaging potentially, if your charity is potentially going to face some kind of fundraising crisis because of what’s going on in the economy, or because of what’s going on. If now is the time to do some kind of crisis appeal to help your charity survive and still serve its beneficiaries. Then clearly the event participants who have just done a sponsored colouring, or a sponsored climb the stairs. Are entirely, those are the kinds of people who might be willing to care and help towards that appeal as well as the fact that they got sponsored to do some sponsored event.

Jane:

Absolutely. Yeah. I completely agree. I did read somewhere that someone had suggested work trying to work out what the potential income gap may be. And then going out to some very warm major donor supporters. And sort of being very transparent about the fact that they’re potentially looking at a gap of X amount. And what those donors may be able to help, in sort of filling some of that gap, and some of that shortfall. Or even maybe match funding some smaller donations. So that’s also another practical idea. And actually one thing I did want to say, which I forgot earlier, but one charity I worked at, we decided, this is a long time ago now, decided not to do a gala dinner that they’d done annually. And so they decided they were going to send a postcard to all the people who they would have invited traditionally.

And they did it in a really sort of fun, slightly tongue in cheek way of sort of saying, “I’m not inviting you to this event this year.” So the money that you would have spent on an outfit, and your travel, and the auction, and the raffle perhaps you would consider giving us a donation instead. And obviously it didn’t make quite as much as it would have done if they had come to the event. But given that the costs were next to nothing, it made very good ROI. And I thought, there’s something in that isn’t there?

Rob:

Yes, I agree. And it also reminds me of the value of being willing to take a risk or two in your tone. Of course there’s some incredibly important and serious things going on in the world on many levels. But all over the world and in this country, in the UK where we are recording. We like to think that one of our strengths is the good old British sense of humour. If we’re inviting people to do slightly different ways of supporting, because all the rules are different. Clearly don’t have a tone which belittles what’s going on in the world and the consequences it’s having.

Rob:

But I think there’s still room for a playful, fun, or interesting tone. That I think those people are having in communicating that you don’t have to do this event, but you can still have fun anyway. If you get the tone right. I think now more than ever, maybe our supporters need to be cheered up by the fact that we can help them smile. Either in your materials or in the way you’re interacting with them across Zoom or something. If you get it right, that doesn’t mean you’re disrespecting the important things going on in the world. But it might mean you’re able to connect and help people at some level enjoy supporting your cause. In the same way that they would have a joke and a laugh if they were doing a sponsored bike ride for you.

Jane:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s kind of trying to keep that sense of community, and that’s potentially lost if we’re not seeing one another for a while. And I’ve got a picture in my head of when this is all over that we’re all going to come out, and everyone’s going to be hugging one another. And there’s going to be this really wonderful sense of community similar to what we saw after the riots. And whenever it was, but people came out with their brooms and they were all waving their brooms up in the air. And you had this mass clean up. And I can kind of almost see some… That’s keeping me quite hopeful and positive.

Rob:

I don’t want to sound too cliched, but I do believe it’s true. When difficult things happen, it can bring out some of the worst in humanity. And right now we’re seeing a lot of the best of humanity coming out. As people in communities are thinking of their vulnerable or elderly neighbours before themselves. And they’re sharing their food and so on. We must not lose sight of the fact that charities have always survived because of the best bits of humanity, human beings instinctive desire to help others beyond themselves. And we need to remember that as a fundraiser. And reach out to it and value it. And be grateful for it and give an outlet for it. It’s as strong as ever now. And hopefully that’s the belief in that might be one of the things that gets us through.

Jane:

And the fact that we’re all going through this together, I keep saying that, but I do feel like that is the golden sort of theme that runs through all of this. Everybody is affected. Doesn’t it make you feel human the fact that this is a global challenge.

Rob:

So Jane, I’m going to wrap up there. If the listeners want to get in touch with you and get some advice about anything to do with fundraising, or any of this stuff in particular, how could they find you?

Jane:

So my website is www.thecharityeventsspecialists.com and my email is Jane@thecharityeventsspecialists.com and I’m on Facebook and Twitter. I’m all over the place. LinkedIn.

Rob:

Yeah, we’ll put all those details in the episode notes. I mean Jane and I would love to hear what you think. And especially because we’re at a time when no one has all the answers. And this is just us giving up best ideas as best we can. We’d love to hear what other idea is helping you right now. Please do share those. Jane, what’s your Twitter name?

Jane:

It’s @janeadlington. It’s my maiden name. Jane Adlington. Yes, A-D-L-I-N-G-T-O-N.

Rob:

Very good, I’m @woods_rob. We hope this has been useful food for thought. You’ve taken a couple of useful practical either mindset tips or practical event related tips to try out. Yes, like I say, let us know how you get on. Jane, thank you so much. I know you’re busy as ever right now, helping your clients handle this stuff. So thanks for making time for it. Look forward to catching up with you soon, but for now, thank you and stay safe. Take care.

Jane:

Thanks Rob. Thank you.

Rob:

Thank you so much Jane.

 

So I hope you found the discussion I had with Jane interesting food for thought at the very least. And encouraging in terms of how we might respond and get through this. And there are some options to solve potentially some of the problems that we’re facing. If you’d like to see a summary of these ideas, then do check out the episode notes on our Bright Spot Fundraising website. And if you found the episode helpful, then please do share it on so that potentially this content might reach some other fundraisers and some other charities right now.

And if you’re now going to be homeworking for the foreseeable future. And it’s quite possible that actually right now you’ve got less time than ever because you’re having to do Herculean levels of extra work to help your charity survive. But if you find yourself in a situation where you have a little more time on your hands, for instance because there are no events. And you’ve not got a daily commute. And if your plan for how you might use some of that time over the next few months might be to invest it in your professional development.

Then one option I suggest that could work well if you’re trying to learn remotely, is the Bright Spot Members Club. This is a learning site that you can access online. And it’s got all kinds of resources to help a fundraiser, learn ways, ideas, inspiration, to be able to raise more money. And we do that through video training sessions, through downloads, at the moment we’re doing regular catch up online coaching sessions with myself or another expert. To think through ways to solve the things that fundraise are being faced with right now. There’s a whole set of resources, and encouragement, and coaching. And events like that, that are designed to help you keep learning, finding ways to adapt. In particular, the things that are going to get us through right now is the ability to adapt, and learn new things, and respond. So in case that is helpful, then please do check out the Club on our site, which is www.brightspotmembersclub.co.uk/join.

And if you’re already a member of the Bright Spot Members Club, then we’re also going to post the full video version of the interview I did with Jane, with some notes, into the site there as well. And finally, thank you so much for finding the time and the decision to listen to this today. The world is a difficult place right now. And I know that personally and professionally you’re having to solve many, many problems. And you’re faced with some serious worries and stresses. And the fact that you found time to now listen to something that I hope might just have helped a little. I do really appreciate that. And so finally, best of luck looking after yourself. I hope you can stay safe. And with whatever energy and resource you can give to it. Also best of luck with your fundraising as well.