Episode 10: Lesley Pinder – How to improve the supporter experience through better insight

Episode Notes

At the heart of most fundraising success stories you find that the fundraiser(s) worked hard to better understand the supporter’s world. And unless you strive to understand and appreciate your supporters’ situation, it’s very difficult to consistently create great experiences.

But doing this in practice is not always easy for busy fundraisers in busy charities. In this episode of the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast, Rob Woods talks to the Lesley Pinder who knows a great deal about the skills, issues and processes involved in gathering meaningful insight to improve the success of fundraising projects.

Lesley is the Head of Supporter Experience at the British Red Cross and in this conversation she and Rob discuss various distinctions she has made about how to improve the supporter experience through improved insight.


  • Lesley manages the process of gathering insight by seeing it as three separate stages.
  • At each stage, you choose tactics to help you bring greater clarity at that stage.
  • STAGE 1 is the DISCOVERY PHASE. You are asking, are we solving the right problem? What problem should we be trying to solve?
  • STAGE 2 is the EXPLORATION PHASE. You are trying to find out why people do certain things, feel a certain way, why certain behaviours do or don’t happen.
  • STAGE 3 is the EVALUATION PHASE. You are testing out responses to whatever it is you think you’ve learned so far.
  • There is clearly value in studying data, but beware relying on it too heavily. It can help you understand what has happened in the past, but not necessarily why, and it does not predict what will happen in the future.
  • Especially in the exploration phase, its usually more valuable to focus more on the supporters’ world, their attitudes to certain issues etc rather than asking how they feel about your charity or product.
  • There are many different tactics you can use, including for example co-creating (where you go and watch and interact with supporters in their world (eg going and seeing how volunteers in charity shops interact with customers)
  • And diary / journal techniques – Lesley described a project which included a certain demographic of supporter helping by sending her a photo from their life each day in relation to that issue (eg the environment) with comments about how they felt.
  • Gathering insight is messy and can be scary, not least because it can offer you answers you might not expect or think you want.
  • Do not under-estimate your supporters, both in terms of how much they care about the cause, and in terms of how well they might understand and be able to articulate the issues involved. Very often they bring a perspective that people within the organisation could never have achieved on their own.
  • Improved insight is built up from a range of different tactics, rather than one single source.
  • There is never a single right answer or final destination. Improved insight will only ever help take your project more in the right direction than before.
  • If you’re trying to solve a big complex problem or make a big change, it requires rigour and the help of a professional research agency. But the tactics Lesley describes in this and Episode 11 can absolutely help any fundraiser improve the success of their day to day projects.


‘Real insight is a bit messy and can tells us things we don’t want to hear.’

Lesley Pinder

‘There’s a problem with asking yes or no questions. You’re never going to get the real through from that.’

Lesley Pinder

Further resources

Just Enough Research by Erika Hall


Transcription of Episode 10

Hello, my name is Rob Woods and welcome to Episode 10 of the fundraising Bright Spots podcast. This is the show for anyone who works in charity fundraising, and who wants ideas and inspiration for how to raise more money, really enjoy their job and make a bigger difference. Just before we start, I wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone who’s been getting in touch via Twitter and LinkedIn to give feedback about the episodes we’ve released so far.

Just this morning, I had several lovely comments about the episodes on major gifts with Tony Gaston and the one on developing your career with Liz Tait. I’m so pleased you’re finding these helpful. And please do keep those comments coming in as I find them so encouraging as I keep striving to find the time to get the next episodes made. And on this episode, we’re looking at fundraising insight, and how you can take practical steps to get better at gathering and learning from insight effectively.

If you’ve ever worked really hard on a project but the results were disappointing and you sensed that there was something about what you did that didn’t quite match the supporter it was supposed to be for, but you were also at a loss as to how you could do better next time, then you’re going to find this episode really useful, because I was thrilled to be able to sit down with the brilliant Lesley Pinder to understand how she approaches the crucial discipline of gathering insight to improve fundraising results. Lesley is the head of supporter experience for the British Red Cross, and as such she spends her time helping our colleagues from all kinds of fundraising disciplines to better understand their supporters in order to take deliberate steps to create a better experience for those supporters. I got so much from this session, including a really useful and clear model of the three steps Lesley uses, to demystify and organise how you gather insight. She also gives some really practical tactics for finding out about your supporter’s world, which are genuinely fun and different to the questionnaires that I had previously thought research was mostly about.

Talking to Lesley made me much more motivated and willing to make time for gathering insight. Because she gave me a clear sense of how very doable it is for any of us who are serious about improving our results. So let’s get started with the interview.

This episode of the fundraising Bright Spots podcast is brought to you by the Bright Spot Members Club. As a practical alternative to one-off conferences and courses, whose impact can fade all too quickly, the Members Club is an online resource that gives you ongoing access to a whole library of video training courses, monthly coaching webinars and life-changing events. It’s all designed to help you learn, enjoy your job and raise more money. To join the 300 fundraisers already in the club or to find out more, go to Bright Spot fundraising.co.uk.

So hello, Leslie Pinder. How are you?

I’m very well thank you.

Good. I’ve enjoyed your talks at conferences at various times. And I know your job has slightly changed over the years. And at one point you were at Breast Cancer Now and you did some time at a Good Innovation. And now you’re head of supporter experience at the British Red Cross. I guess my first question before we get into it, and I can pick your brains about supporter experience, and insights and so on I guess my first question is about how it’s a slightly different kind of job title to what used to happen in charities five or 10 years ago. So how did you get into this role now? What’s a potted history of your arriving in this role?

Oh, that’s a very good question. For around 10-12 years, I was a bit of a jack of all trades fundraiser. So I’ve done individual giving fundraising, community events, corporate philanthropy, and then found myself in an innovation role which was mainly around new product development. But within that, I understood or learned just how much an understanding of the people that you’re creating a thing for, i.e. your supporters, makes such a huge difference to your fundraising. And moving into the Head of Supporter Experience job felt like a combination of all of those years of fundraising, and transferring that learning and understanding of innovation and innovative thinking into the space where I think as a sector we had the biggest work to do, which was the experience that we were giving our supporters. So it felt like a very natural place for me to end up and that it was at the British Red Cross as well, that meant that it had the added level of opportunity as well. Yes, so that’s how I got where I am.

I think five or 10 years ago, there weren’t many job titles which included the words ‘supporter experience’. We didn’t even use the word insight as often, I think as we did do now. And I’ve done so many interviews with fundraisers who’ve done really well. And at the back of most of the stories, when I really dig deep, one of the things they seem to be better at than most is striving to better understand the supporter so that when the supporter supports or they give the experience is better. I’ve noticed that as a trait that often leads to success. I don’t think there’s much fundraising success if you haven’t got that this bit right. Now, maybe it’s just that we’re too busy. There’s too much to do. But my observation is that it remains a thing many charities and many fundraisers could get better at.  What’s your perception of some of the reasons why we still not doing as well as we could?

I think that’s a really interesting question. I think, as a sector, I think we’ve become a bit complacent. And we know and we hear all the time that giving is an inherent part of humanity and that people want to give, that people want to make a difference in the world. I think that has meant that sometimes we assume that that’s enough. And that just by our very existing as a charity and giving people an opportunity to give that that we are doing all that we can do. I think sometimes there’s a perception that really that’s all you need to know. And I also think that we are a bit scared of research, partly just because the skill set capabilities and capacity to do it don’t necessarily exist and so there’s a fear…

And if you find out lots of things, how do you focus on what matters? And I think the fear factor has led to people relying on data as the answer to everything. Looking at how people have behaved in the past as the answer to how they’re going to behave in the future. Which I don’t think really works any more. I think you obviously still need behavioural data, and you need to analyse performance. But I think that’s become the default for us because it’s comfortable data, and it gives you a yes or no. Whereas real human insight is a bit messy and may tell us things we don’t want to hear. I think the last thing which kind of goes over all of it and links right back to the first one is that as charities, we were not very good at seeing ourselves as in other people’s worlds. We view ourselves as operating separately to what’s going on in the world and in people’s lives, when really we’re just one part of a much more complicated context. And if you just view yourselves as the most important element then you don’t think it’s important to find out what else is going on in people’s lives. And I think that links back to being a little bit complacent. And so there’s lots of reasons, then on top of that budget and time.

Yeah, so I’m really interested in that last one, because it’s really quite hard to overcome. Because in most charities, we’re blessed that we’re surrounded by really passionate driven people. Yes, this cause is astonishingly important, and it’s the top of the agenda. And it needs to be that way because how else are we ever going to cut through. One of the most quoted words at conferences is the word passion. But I agree, it can cause this ‘Curse of Knowledge’ whereby we’re not quite real, in necessarily sharing our ideas about our cause, in the way in which or in the language in which or the context in which our supporters need it. And so it can cause us to think that being passionate and enthusiastic enough and if you speak louder will, then people will want to hear this message, if only we can reach them. So I do agree there are human and there are organisational reasons why that just is quite hard to solve. Is that your sense?

Yeah, I think so. I agree, I think there’s a danger of assuming that everybody cares about what you’re doing as much as you do. On the one hand, but then I think on the converse, there is also a little bit of an underestimation of our supporters. And assuming that they won’t understand things and that they don’t they, if you were to ask them for their views on your cause, that they wouldn’t fully understand it because they’re not the experts like we are. And so there’s, there’s two sides of it, I think it’s both. It’s both assuming they may not care as much as we do, but also assuming that that passion for our work is a bit simple, or is not as clever as ours.

And one of the things I’ve found, and actually, this week has been an amazing example of it, where we put in front of some supporters of ours and future gazing concepts about what supporting the Red Cross might look like in 10 years time. And the responses and the articulation of what we were trying to say from the supporters was so much more clear and crisp and thoughtful than we had probably managed to articulate ourselves. They were describing what we were talking about in a language much more human and they completely got what we were trying to say. And I think sometimes we have this assumption that they won’t understand that sort of stuff and that we know best because we’re the experts. And so we shouldn’t ask them, because they won’t get it.

Also, there’s a thing as well about the ego, as in ‘I’m the expert in this, I shouldn’t need to ask, shouldn’t need to ask for help. I shouldn’t need to ask what people think because I should know the answer’. And that’s a cultural thing, and that it’s not just in what we say but also in the way that people run projects. Or: I think you think if I’m a fundraising expert, I shouldn’t have to ask the audience because I should know the answers myself.

I agree with all of those bits. And one thing I particularly picked up on, a couple of moments ago, was the concept of fear.

And in particular, what you were saying about fear of asking their opinion: actually they might not agree with all of what we are going to do; how will we respond to them not liking something that we want to do or frankly we feel we need to do? In your work now, how do you tend to overcome that in your yourself or (crucially) with some of the other stakeholders within your charity? Who might feel those fears?

I think what’s really important if you’re going to go out and speak to your supporters about anything is understanding what the question is that you’re asking. If you go out with a too broad kind of question – ‘Just tell us how you feel about x, y & z?’ Then, there’s a danger of being completely overwhelmed with so much feedback that’s that you don’t know what to do with it. And so being very clear about what question you want to ask and why you’re asking it, and what you’re going to do with what you find out, is really helpful.

An example would be: we went to speak to our donors who support us in emergencies. We wanted to know what was important and, and why they felt they needed to support at that specific time in their experience with us. And we asked them some very specific questions about that point in time rather than trying to understand everything they felt about the Red Cross and everything that they felt about the world. And the other thing is also reassuring people that you’re not going to make every single decision based on the research that you do. You apply the research and then you test what you’ve done as well. So you don’t ditch everything because a group of people have said that they don’t particularly support an area of your work. The research has always got to be part of a bigger picture. Not just what they tell you, but also what your mission is, and what’s financially going to be possible as well. If that makes sense!

Yeah, it does. That’s really reassuring. And you help your internal clients get clarity on the overall

context, the overall picture of how we make decisions in this this particular focus group or this particular questionnaire, this is one part of it. And it fits into this whole sort of underlying pattern or insight that builds up from several different areas, rather than needing to respond to any particular outlier opinion. It makes perfect sense to me the way you said it to me now. But I think your internal client would have needed to know that in order to be more brave in asking for opinions.

Yeah, absolutely. I think people often use the phrase ‘supporter-led’, which implies that if your supporters say one, that therefore you do that, and that’s not how research works. If a big group of supporters of ours turned around and told us that they didn’t think that we should be working in crisis response, we’re not going to stop working in crisis response. We’re just maybe not going to talk to those people anymore. I mean, to me, that tells me that maybe our supporters aren’t actually that committed to our work.

Absolutely, it has to be the perfect Venn diagram, with your supporters needs and views and attitudes on one hand intersecting with your mission on the other. You can’t give up one for the other. But sometimes it’s about how you talk about that mission, how you articulate to those supporters the opportunities you give them to play a part in. It can definitely be informed by your, by your supporters. It’s not one or the other. And also, I would say that you should never ask your supporters if they like something or what they want. And I think one of the biggest misconceptions I’ve had, which I am told repeatedly is that supporters will tell you one thing and do another.

And which comes from the old school style question of ‘Hi, would you like to be thanked? And people will say yes or no?’ or ‘How often would you like to be emailed by us?’ Or the classic ‘And how would you rate the frequency of our communications?’: people will always say ‘Just right’. They’ll never say too much or too little. They’ll always just say just right, but that’s because they’re not the right questions to be asking. And you know, if you ask people if they want to be thanked, they’re always going to say no, because they don’t want to look like the sort of people who need thanks.

But if you actually ask people what a charity has done for them that really made them feel inspired, they’ll tell you things, like: ‘They got in touch with me and let me know how much that that donation had made a difference and they showed me how it had been spent. And they made me feel like I was part of their organisation. They made me feel like my gift was part of a bigger whole’. All of those things are feelings that you give people by thanking them. And so there’s I think there’s a bit of a problem with yes or no. Do you like this? Do you not like this? And you’re never going to get the real truth from that. If you just ask people that kind of stuff, you’re never truly going to understand what they care about. Because that’s not what you’re asking. You’re asking them to tell you what you want them to tell you. Not really what they want to say.

Thank you, Lesley, that I think that’s a key distinction here. This should never be about just ‘can we tick tick the box so that we can get the go ahead to invest in our project because some people said yes, go ahead?’ It’s a much more mature, and valuable and vulnerable approach to we might not know it all by the end but we will learn something rather than to safely tick ta box so that we can charge on as we were going to.

Yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes you might ask a direct question like, ‘can you tell me what it is that you really like about our organisation?’ And then they might come back and say ‘I love that you do events in my local community I always see I really like that 10k run that you do. If you just see that as the surface answer you you think, okay, cool. Let’s do more 10k runs. Let’s do 10Ks everywhere we need to do a 10k and every town in the country. But if you said to me, why is it that you really love that 10k? You know, it’s really good fun. But why is it fun? I love it because I get the opportunity to do something with my family that I wouldn’t normally get to do and I meet people from the charity and I get to know them face to face and they tell me about the work that you’re doing.

And they gave a little speech at the beginning about all the in the local hospices that have been helped – underneath that I really love a 10k run,  is community and personal connection, and fun. And you can deliver those things in multiple ways, not just by 10k runs. But I think unfortunately, we’ve just got the first answer and organized hundreds of 10 keys. And I think that’s why we’ve gone as a sector, ‘look, that thing over there that’s working for them, race for life or whatever, we need one of them, or a coffee morning is working from it Macmillan, we need a coffee morning’, rather than looking underneath why the coffee morning works for Macmillan and then trying to find your version of that, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And maybe we’ll come on to this, but a thing I took from your excellent talk, which I saw at the International fundraising Congress the other day, was helping me see this work in a much more holistic way overall, and that I should be trying to learn rather than just tick boxes. But within the mix of how you might learn, there’s all sorts of different tactics you could use, rather than just the one or two that I had in my head as to how I might find out, you know, what some insights might be. So

maybe, across this talk, you’ll be able to give us a sense of the range of things we can do, rather than the one or two or three that are in most fundraisers’ methodologies. And the other thing that we can also lead on to is whether you’ve got a broad process. I don’t know if it’s three steps or four steps or five steps that you tend to follow whenever you’re carrying out some research like this. I’d love to hear that as well. But it’s up to you, focus on that first question first, about the range available?

Well, I think I can talk to the latter and within that answer the first question. So yes, we do have a broad kind of approach that we’ve been using. For our supporter experience design projects  what we’re trying to do is design better experiences at different stages on that process. You might use different types of research, for different reasons. At the beginning of a project, the first thing we would always do is like a kind of discovery phase: ‘what is the problem we’re trying to solve? And how do we know it’s a problem?’

And through conversations with colleagues, or some feedback that we’re getting from donors, we start to identify an area that might be a bit of an issue. For example, when I first joined, just by chatting to colleagues I discovered that there was a specific group of donors that had no defined journey, even though we had an assumption, a hunch, that they were particularly committed group of supporters. So the first stage of that project was doing a kind of discovery around that.

So we did research, like looking at our existing data analysis about how those donors have been in the past, looking at their behaviour on the website.  And so that we did quite a lot of quantum quant research at that stage or data analysis, to look at what we thought the problem was and, and data and quan is really good for getting an understanding of the size of the problem and what people are doing. And then from that research, we were able to go, okay, we think there’s something going on in the first three months with based on their behaviour, we think that they might be this kind of supporter, we have a hunch that they’re interested in these sorts of things, but we don’t really know where that comes from.

And they give or they sign up mainly in times of emergency. So obviously, that’s a big area of interest for them. And we probably think they might be interested in international work. So in that discovery phase, looking at what research you already have, and some of that’s also speaking to colleagues as well, which still came to this research. You come up with a list of assumptions and questions you want to explore further and usually a kind of problem statement, which is, Hey, can we create a more engaging experience for this group of supporters that improve the loyalty?

And then in the second stage, we went into exploration. And that’s when it was more about understanding why they behave the way they do. And that’s when you start bringing in different techniques. We did telephone interviews. We did decent quant surveys, but we made sure we included qualitative open text questions as well. You can do things like daily activities or pop-up online co-creation communities. And depending on the project, you can literally go out and speak to people or follow them about, you know. If we are doing a project with our retail shops, for example, I’d go into the retail shops and talk to customers there and then, and so that would be the phase two, which would be the exploration phase of really, truly trying to understand the support.

That is the point where you need to stop asking questions about you and start asking questions about them. The discovery phase is much more about us and what we think is going on. In the exploration phase it’s about what is actually happening in real life, and why are people behaving that way? What do they feel? And what are their needs? And we would also do things like journey mapping at that stage. So based on what our supporters are telling us, what is actually going on for them and the journey that they have with us.

And where the pain points are and that sort of thing. And using that research, that’s when we’d be like, okay, the question is how to improve loyalty. The problem is, we’re not meeting their needs in this way. Or they need this kind of information, but we’re not giving it and then we would create solutions. And then the third stage is kind of, looking at anomalies or validation, because I just read this brilliant book called Just Enough Research where they point out that they seek validation, it means you’re assuming that you’re going to find out you’re right.

And so it should be evaluation. You might validate or you know, or you might invalidate what you think is right, which is just as valid. And then that’s a different kind of research. That’s where you might do like, okay, we think the answer is going to be this new email journey.

So will we test with the existing email journey, or will we do surveys?

Or we’ll do some data analysis to see how their behaviour is changing.

So there are different types of research that you do at different stages. And I hope what’s come out from my explanation is the fact that it has to be a suite of different types of research. Just quant research and then just data analysis on their own, won’t give you the answers that you need. Not that there’s ever an answer, just to be clear, there’s never a right answer. But together you can use those different techniques for different reasons. And then you just have to keep exploring. I think that’s one of my biggest learnings: I think what people look for in research is answers, and I don’t think you ever get answers. You just you just get more defined guidance or a steer in what might be the right direction. Does that make sense?

Yes. I really liked that big picture model that you explained the other day at the conference. The first chunk is the discovery phase – among other things, to work out, are we solving the right problem, what problem are we trying to solve? And then the second one is the exploration phase. And then the third one, broadly, is the evaluation phase in which you are testing out responses to whatever it is you think you’ve learned so far.

Yeah, totally. So the project I mentioned about that group of supporters that we knew weren’t getting a particularly great experience with us; we’ve just launched a new journey with them. And it’s been running for about five weeks. And we are evaluating the responses to those emails.

So just at the basic level, the response rates – are people opening and clicking through and are they unsubscribing? None are unsubscribing so far, so that’s good.

But we’re also building in feedback points with the supporters as well and asking their feedback on what we’ve been telling them; whether they find it interesting and how it’s made them feel, and whether it’s increased their knowledge of Red Cross or increase their positive feelings towards the Red Cross. So although we did a lot of upfront research it doesn’t stop now, and we may find that what we’ve designed isn’t quite right which is absolutely fine. And the quicker you can get stuff out into the market and tested in real life the better. We’ve learned so much more in the last five weeks than we did probably in the six months prior to it, just talking about it. Getting it out there has really helped us.

Fantastic. And there were two things that you mentioned a little while ago that I’d love you to explain a little more. One was diary activities, and the other was co-creating, both of which were new to me before you explained them to the conference. Can you bring those to life a bit, what might either of those look like in practice? And, again, many of our listeners are in smaller organisations that don’t necessarily have a dedicated person like you to help them with this, so what’s a version of those things that that someone might do if they’re working in a smaller organisation?

So the time that people talk about if you’re a researchers is ethnographic research, which is really jargony but it basically means taking yourself out into the world of the people.

So if you’re a community fundraiser designing a new thing for schools, for example, it might mean that you literally go and spend a day in a primary school with a teacher and watch them and see what their life is like or sit and chat to the kids or meet the teachers at parent teachers evening and you’re literally putting yourselves in into their world. If I was to do a piece of work on like the experience of our shop volunteers, I would go and shadow a shop volunteer and understand what it feels like for them that it’s kind of hard sometimes and quite time-consuming. Its also quite scary to be brutally honest. It’s not. It’s not natural thing to do just to go and watch someone.

But doing dailies is a really nice way of getting a glimpse of what somebody is real life looks like where they actually physically being there so you can give people different tasks. And it can be done super simple so you can sign up or recruit 10 or 15 people at the school, for example teachers, or parents, and everyday, ask them to send you a picture, or something they’ve done that day.

And you can ask them to share a highlight or a low light. If you’re doing it around a specific thing like sports, if it’s for Sport Relief, for example, or an animal charity, you could say to them, how can you share something you’ve done with your pet today? Can you share something that has made you think about the environment today, take a picture of something that you think represents climate change in your environment today or tell it shows a picture of something that makes you stay up at night and that you really worry about and you can be quite broad and then they have to be quite creative with what they send you so you may you might end up with pictures of people playing with their dogs or them talking about how they are really panicked and worried about the fact they’re not really recycling as much as they think they should be, and you really start to get an understanding of what’s happening in their life, rather than just saying, ‘can you tell us how you feel about the latest WWF campaign on X’?

And you really get, like, clever ideas. They never really mentioned the charity and half the time you don’t even really tell them charities the research is for, and we did something about Breast Cancer. And  we had an online co-creation insight panel for three weeks with young women aged 18 to 35. And we asked them about fashion and charity and what it meant to live ethically and they had to share pictures and talk about things they’ve done that day. And if you went shopping on Saturday, we asked them to share pictures.

And you just built a picture of real people and the world that they live in and then you start to see how what you could potentially fit in with that or make their lives better. And whilst also as an added plus, also getting the opportunity to change the world. And so it’s a really powerful tool, you can do it just by sending a word document if you want it and asking them to fill it in at the end of each day, or doing it on WhatsApp, and it doesn’t have to be expensive at all to do it.

So a key thing I’m realising is the way you’re talking about it, I can picture many of those 15 women actually quite enjoying it and looking forward to taking the photo and that’s different from my old paradigm of research, which is having to sit down and fill in a form and it’s always longer than I thought it would be. Or I’m on a high street and I’m trying to get my sandwich and someone’s got a clipboard and they want to ask me 28 questions and they say it would only take five minutes, but obviously it’s going to take longer. It seems to me that part of your part of your process is to be insightful in how you gather inside. You do it in terms that in and of themselves, they’re likely to be more fun and easy to do.

Yeah, absolutely. Although, having said that I did a diary exercise with teachers and giving more teachers more paperwork, in hindsight, was not a good plan. But they were very diligent and they did their homework because their teachers, but by doing it the way we did, didn’t add to their life.

And, and I think it’s important to, to say that, by no means do I think that you should never do big, large scale research projects with professional research agencies, if you’re trying to solve a big complex problem or you’re trying to make really big change for your organisation that really does require a huge amount of rigour. Absolutely, you should work with a professional research agency. If you want to understand who your supporters are, so that day in day out, you can have a bit of empathy, understanding, you can do it yourself.

I hope you found Leslie’s ideas and advice helpful. If you want to go back to the key ideas we explore in this episode, take a look at the Episode Notes in the blog and podcast section of our website, which is brightspotfundraising.co.uk. As you may know, I try to keep these episodes down to about half an hour. So people can, for instance, fit them into a reasonable commute. But as I was recording this chat with Lesley, I realised you can’t possibly do justice to a weighty topic like this in that time. So we ended up creating two half hour episodes from the interview, rather than just one really long one. So if you liked today’s episode, then do look out for the next episode where there’s lots more valuable advice, including the crucial topic of how you get sceptics in your organisation, even if they’re more senior than you, to buy into the importance of this approach to fundraising.

Finally, thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate that you find the time to keep learning, exploring ideas and trying out new things to improve your charities capacity to make a difference. I look forward to sharing the second half of my chat with Lesley in the next episode, goodbye.