One major challenge for a fundraiser is how you help your colleagues and trustees to see things from the supporters’ point of view. In Episode 4 of the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast, Rob Woods interviews the individual giving expert Rachel Hunnybun about a particular personalised thank you project, and the difference it made to everyone involved.
She explains how handwritten thank you cards were sent to anyone who had given more than the amount they normally gave (even if that gift was relatively small), and she shares the valuable impact this special thank you had on later giving, compared to a control group.
Rachel and Rob go on to discuss a charity that achieves both efficiency and ‘WOW factor’ in its thanking as well as the surprising power of involving non-fundraising colleagues in supporter-focused stewardship activities.
- Rachel decided to send a hand-written thank you card to donors who had been more generous than usual with their gift. Rather than send cards to people who had given over an arbitrary amount, she decided to send a special thank you to the 24% of people who had far exceeded their own typical gift, even if this was lower than other people’s gifts.
- It’s important to do (even small) things which help your colleagues see things from your supporter’s point of view. This increases the chances that teams across the charity will act in a supporter-focused way.
- Rachel measured the difference in giving from those who had received the extra handwritten thank you note compared to those who had not.
- The act of sending this extra special thank you led to tens of thousands of pounds in further donations. From the group who had received the extra thank you, giving the next year increased 174%.
- The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath brings to life the power of creating surprise and delight for people beyond what they expect. Though not a fundraising book, we’ve found it a great read to inspire improvements you can make.
- One example is of the UK sandwich shop chain Pret, in which staff are empowered to give away a certain value of free drinks or cakes to customers per week. This creates spontaneous positive surprise moments (and is more fun than using the loyalty card scheme that other chains use).
- And crucially, it has a positive impact on the staff who are empowered to be kind in this way. And in charities, involving your colleagues and trustees in even small activities (signing thank you cards or making thank you calls) has two positive effects…
- It helps the supporters feel special and it also increases the chance that those colleagues will help with other activities to improve supporters’ experience of giving to the charity.
‘I’m looking for an indicative response…sometimes you just have to do something.’ Rachel Hunnybun
‘I do believe that supporter experience is impossible to do in a silo.’ Rachel Hunnybun
‘How do we recognise the fact that they’ve given this gift, which is more than we asked for, which is more than they’ve ever given before. And actually as an experience, I wanted to acknowledge it in a similar way that we acknowledge a really high gift.’ Rachel Hunnybun
‘Colleagues had became more interested, helpful towards her for these other fundraising things, giving her the information or whatever because now it had become part of their identity…she’d helped them (non-fundraisers) practice being fundraisers.’ Rob Woods
Resources – Get ideas and inspiration to create WOW moments for your supporters
WOW Moments – Increase fundraising income by adding surprise and delight in three crucial areas.
Free download: bit.ly/wowmomentsguide
The Power of Moments, by Chip and Dan Heath
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Full transcript of Episode 4
Hello, and welcome to the fundraising bright spots podcast. This is the show for anyone who works in charity fundraising, anyone’s ideas and inspiration for how to raise more money, enjoy their job and make a bigger difference. And on this episode, if you’ve ever had good intentions to put more effort into creating great experiences for your supporters, but you haven’t followed through, or you haven’t managed to get your colleagues to follow through and have high standards in this area, then you’re going to find this episode really useful.
Because today we’re looking at examples to strengthen your conviction that creating a great experience for your supporter consistently is not only the right thing to do, it also improves your fundraising results. So to help us explore these ideas, I was really excited to get the chance to talk to a fabulous fundraiser called Rachel Hunnybun, who has worked with quite a few different charities, usually an individual giving and she’s currently based in Canada working with fundraising consultancy Blakely, one reason I was especially keen to talk to Rachel was to find out about a particular piece of research he carried out to demonstrate to her colleagues the difference that better stewardship made to subsequent donations. I think you’re going to find Rachel’s insights and her examples really interesting.
This episode of the Fundraising Bright Spots podcast is brought to you by Bright Spot Mastery Programmes. So if you need to increase income and corporate partnerships, or major donor and trust fundraising, these programmes will help. As well as the advanced strategies you learn on the training days, you’ll receive one to one coaching to help you put those powerful techniques into practice. To find out more about the corporate mastery and major gifts mastery programmes, head over to bright spot fundraising.co.uk.
Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. And I’m today joined by Rachel Hunnybun. Rachel,
in particular, I think of you as an individual giving specialist and I know you’ve been a successful consultant for several years. And just bring us up to speed with your career right now. Am I right thing you currently are working with Blakely?
That’s right. Yeah, Rob, but I’m actually this last year. I’ve been working with them lately who are an agency based in Canada. So I’m pretty much working exclusively with Canadian charities at the moment, which has been a really interesting, interesting year and there’s kind of quite a lot of learning from that in lots of ways. But yeah, my background is in individual giving direct response and I’ve worked for a number of charities Here in the UK at some very little ones, and some NHS ones, some hospice ones and national charity or National Medical charity ones. And so I kind of I had quite a broad base before I went to the other side to the consulting side…
and it’s one of the wonderful things when you do have the privilege of, of being a consultant working in different countries and being different kinds of organisations is that wonderful chance to learn different strengths or different tactics from the different bits and pieces within the industry and and putting that back together and making the whole game that bit more rich and interesting in terms of the techniques we can apply.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there’s a there’s a massive thing about understanding where people are coming from and the challenges that they face. And when you’re working with people in in charities of all different sizes and different kind of kind of areas, I think that has really, it’s really been very useful to kind of be able to draw upon the experience that I’ve had kind of sitting in that seat, so to speak.
I’ve seen you speak on several different topics, which helped me over the years. But one of the things I see you as having a real strength, compared to some people in the industry is in terms of the supporter experience and rather than only skill in acquisition skill and what, how organised are we and how determined are we to help donors who have chosen to support already have such a wonderful experience and feel cared for feel interested in? Obviously that’s good for them, but also crucially, that’s good for our bottom line, as well.
And whilst I feel many fundraisers, like that as a theory and it just chimes with good sense, in practice, I see that too often we rarely get time to do those things, even though we would love to if you know, they are instinctive, right? But follow through often tends to happen. And you and I were chatting the other day. And you mentioned the really good recent example of a particular tactic you did to do with this idea of wonderful experiences. And I really love the example and I wondered if you could just kind of set it up as to what the problem was or why this was needed, and then potentially move on to what you actually did?
Yeah, well, I mean, it was, it was something that we did a couple of years ago, when I was working at an international development, tactical, Practical Action. And I mean, the problem you’ve just kind of hit the nail on the head. The problem that the sector has is that we spend money on acquisition and getting people in through the door and then the retention side of things which I hate the word retention, it sounds painful…but that kind of idea of, of developing loyalty and relationships because it’s not quantifiable in some ways the return on investment isn’t sometimes immediately visible, it can really get forgotten.
And suddenly we’ve become about a numbers game, about getting people in through the door, they have a really great welcome journey and then suddenly, that they’re kind of dumped into a programme that all they’re doing is being asked for money. And so this particular tactic was something that we did, but the strength of it wasn’t necessarily what we did, but we actually looked back a year later at a control group and a test group to kind of see potentially what impact that activity had in pounds and pence.
So that kind of helps then business cases going forward for doing that kind of work. And then I think this particular example and it was very easy to do that because we jumped on something that was an organisation wide, very exciting and we had one of those lovely moments in your career where you put out an appeal kind of feeling like it’s a good one. This isn’t like gut feeling. It’s a good one. And it just went ballistic.
We generated this appeal that we, it generated twice what we normally get from our Christmas appeal. And it happened in September – we changed our tactics. We were running low on the budget, we decided that we had, we had to do something different and we used actually a very emotional story telling based tactic, which we hadn’t done before with our donors. And it obviously resonated – it was a strong story. And so this kind of came out of the need to capitalise on success. And the whole organisation was really excited about the money that this appeal was bringing in. So when we started thinking about what can we do to capitalise on the donor experience of these people who were giving, everybody wanted to be involved because everybody loves being involved with a success. So it was very easy to to kind of get that emotional, emotional kind of roller coaster. And then of course, a year later when we were looking at the results, everybody was eager to find out what has happened because they were involved in doing it. So it’s kind of getting people on board, I suppose.
One answer I heard was can we put it into the very strategy itself and our friend, Craig Linton, the fundraising detective, he says, almost everything he does now, he includes, in addition to the objective of how much money is going to raise or also some other more obvious, he always includes a learning objective, from the start, in whatever he does… ‘Even if we just learned that this headline works better than that headline’, it’s always there. And then secondly, surprise, surprise, the more people you can involve in any of these initiatives rather than just you, the lone practitioner, anything where we are sometimes easier said than done, and you’ve acknowledged why it was easier this time. But for the listener, anytime we involve other people, in the fact that we are going to be measuring or looking back or reviewing in this way, of course, is going to make it more likely to happen whether or not you the fundraiser, leave. And I’d love to talk about these fascinating strategic elements. But probably the listeners are wanting to know, what did you do, Rachel?
So the appeal was really successful, and I’m kind of naturally curious and kind of started doing some reports and having a look at, well, who’s giving all this money and why, like, well, we didn’t know kind of why apart from the fact that the appeal obviously hit a lot of a lot of chords. But what came out of my curiosity was that we had about 24% of the people who donated had given their largest ever gift to the charity on this particular appeal.
Now, we had a base of quite loyal donors and some who’ve been on the file for years and years. So that’s certainly kind of got thinking going of actually, this is quite a big thing for that many people to have measured to have given their largest ever gift. And so I started thinking about how do we recognise the fact that they’ve given this gift which is more than we asked for which is more than they’ve ever given before. And actually, as an experience, I wanted to acknowledge it in a similar way that we acknowledge a really high gift.
So the kind of concept behind it was, it doesn’t matter how much you’ve given, it’s about the stretch between what you normally give and what you gave to this appeal. So somebody had given her 20 pounds to the appeal. And that was kind of their level of giving, and then they’ve given 60 pounds. So this appeal, normally it would go unnoticed, but actually to that person, that’s quite a stretch, that’s quite a stretch gift. And, and I often think as well that we don’t necessarily do propensity modelling and you can do kind of, you know, where somebody lives and things like that.
But there are people sitting on our files who have the ability to give more, but they’re just not giving more because we’re not kind of inspiring them in that way. So we started to think about kind of how we could apply maybe things that we do for Middle major level donors to this group of people who had decided on this particular panel to give us a lot more than either we were asking for or that they’d normally given. We pulled a file from the database of people who fit into that criteria of giving us what we considered a stretch donation.
And really easily we got a load of people, including the team, I mean, everybody involved into a room, we had some cards, and we wrote handwritten cards and the message was very simple. It was thank you for your particularly generous gifts, we’ve noticed that you’ve given a particularly generous gift. And it wasn’t about saying how much that gift was going to do or that it was one of our best gifts or things like that. It was about noticing, and they changed their behaviour and thanking them for it. So the cards were signed personally by the person who wrote them handwritten notes and they went, they went off in the post.
So there were lots of different people in the organisation writing these thank you cards, in the end was it 100 or 300 cards that had to be written?
And oh gosh, it was it was probably about 150. I can’t remember the exact numbers. It was a a small kind of test. So it wasn’t a huge number. And I think, and I love my database analyst at the time who I worked with. And we had a really great relationship. And he just kind of sat there and he said, but Rachel, it’s not statistically relevant. And the numbers are too small. And I just ‘Yeah, but it might give us an indication.’ So I’m looking for an indicative response rather than a statistical and I get about statistical relevance and all of that stuff. But sometimes you just have to do something. So that was a small, a small Test there.
And I would say, a sample size of 150. If you actually are measuring and seeing whether it made any difference is important. By all means it’s not worthy of a PhD. My goodness its a whole lot more persuasive to the rest of your colleagues than not measuring anything. If, if something happens to those 150, who did who didn’t receive a card, at a common sense level, it’s way better than nothing. And so then you put stamps on and sent these nice thank you letters to these people who had given a gift that to them was a stretch, even if it was simply a stretch from 20 to 60.
And then you looked back and reviewed whether it had made any difference in terms of future giving patents, what happened?
So we had obviously the group who had a card and the group who didn’t get a card, and we looked at what they’d given over the next year. And initially it seemed there was no difference at all, and the number of people regardless of whether or not they got a card, the same number of people increased their giving and the same number of people decreased their giving. So from that you kind of go well, it made no difference.
The massive difference that it did have is that there were a group of people who maintain their giving – they flatlined, and far more of the people who didn’t get a card, then got a card maintained their giving. So 9% of the people who got a card maintained versus 17%, who didn’t get a card. On the flip side, when we looked at people who doubled or more or they’re giving, so they weren’t just increasing, they were really increasing. They doubled it. We had far more people 23% in fact, who received a card who doubled their giving the next year.
So we basically we looked at this, this idea of a slight increase or slight decrease, no difference. More people maintained who didn’t get a card versus more people who doubled that giving who did get a card. What that actually meant in money was 10s of thousands of pounds, because we’re talking about people who have stretched their giving. And then they continue to that stretch.
And so we looked at the whole group this might be kind of an easier way of explaining it – in the group who didn’t receive a card, overall, they increased their giving by 115% the next year and so they were they were good donors, and they did increase.
Then the group who did receive a card got 174% so that’s quite a significant difference in increase of giving of people who received this card and got that good feeling versus people who didn’t.
And at some level, it comes back to years ago, when I was doing my psychology degree about learning theory. And, you know, decades and decades of research into learn how people and all mammals learn is they do more of what they get rewarded for. And they try to do less of what gets ignored or not rewarded.
And at its simplest, if when this donor did a behaviour that which is hopefully good for them, but definitely good for our beneficiaries, the act of noticing it and acknowledging it and gives an extra hit of dopamine, and helps them feel good because we noticed. Yeah, because they think, oh, that feel good. They liked it. Now I feel good again. I’m going to do that again.
Unpacking that, that thinking process as I see it, there’s broadly two challenges with thanking. Number one is being organised, enough having a policy or a process that it happens, you know, soon enough after the gift and so on and, and so no one slips through the gap and that on the one hand we need to be efficient with our thinking and a bit of effort can help many charities once you see how valuable it is, what a wonderful difference it makes to the donor – its good enough to make this gift but be also over time the future chance of gifts if we get more efficient and get that done its good for our overall ability to help those we serve.
But then the yang to the yin, if you see what I mean is this more creative more high touch stuff inspired by that wonderful book the Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath these more exciting fun things which quite a lot of people I know get excited about. Yeah, I think we need to do both of these and the organisations that really nail it needs to be both organised and somehow make time for the higher touch and more exciting stuff. So is there anything you’ve learned about how to manage to have our cake and eat it?
Well, recently I gave online gift to solar aid. And they demonstrated exactly this actually. And it’s about, it’s about quality of thanking and acknowledgement, but also timing. So I gave an online gift. I think it was about 15 pounds. It wasn’t a huge gift. And the online experience that you get on their site is brilliant because they have this little calculator and tells you how many lights you’ve lit or lamps you’ve lit and it’s great. So I got my online email thanking me for my gift. Probably about six weeks later, maybe a little bit more. I remember because it was near my birthday, I got this orange envelope through the post, and it was handwritten on the outside.
And so I thought, oh, it’s a birthday. It was like a birthday card. And I opened it and it was a letter from solar aid and it was a thank you letter with a handwritten PS and this was the amazing thing there was a ‘PS we apologise for the thank you letter being late’.
And I thought that was absolutely great because I’d given 15 pounds online. And that’s the first physical thank you letter I’ve had for a 15 pounds online donation. And it’s this idea of yeah, they got the they got the basics, right. They got the efficiencies right at the time, but later on, and actually, the fact that it was later on, I think, was a real benefit because it reminded me of that great feeling that I had six weeks ago. Now, the interesting thing is they’ve recently written to me because it’s Christmas time coming up. So it’s there, I got the Christmas letter. And honestly, with all due respect to solar aids, it wasn’t something that I was particularly inspired by. But they still got a donation, because they made that experience so great that it didn’t really matter what they were writing to me about.
I’d already kind of thought the next time they asked me, I’m going to give them a donation. So it’s that. And I thought that was quite interesting as well, just from a channel perspective, because I think we kind of just assume that if somebody gives online, that they’re an online person, and actually, if I can’t give or buy anything online, I don’t do it. But I use it as the way that I do transactions, not how I want to be communicated with going forward. So I think there’s some learning there on channel integration and the fact that actually, just because somebody is giving a small amount online doesn’t negate the need for proper thinking. I can give a bigger gift than 15 pounds, and the last one they got was bigger, but that initial kind of testing, like what are they going to do. It provides a quite good experience.
I love that the distinction you made between the channel they first heard from us on, not then putting us in a box and thinking we are only that. But the other thing when Richard Turner, who I know quite well now and I’ve interviewed him several times, he said the challenge of how you tell people and give them these special moments, which authors like Chip and Dan Heath absolutely demonstrate is commercially valuable and helps your bottom line. How do you do that without spending your whole afternoon in a brainstorm all the time? You have to be precious with your time and other resources. And that is key distinction.
One of them that Richard and his colleagues made several years ago was that the reason we’re not doing these wonderful, thank us – it’s not that we don’t want to, it’s just we haven’t got the tools by our desks to do it. Their instinct is there and then the moment is lost, and we didn’t act so they just got these beautiful inspiring colourful emotive, thank you cards printed up with – you just look at the front of someone who’s able to do their homework because they’ve got a solar lamp. They’ve got these beautiful cards printed up, everyone’s got a pile of those on their desk. And anyone, whether they get a gift from a major donor or a corporate or, or wherever, if nothing else, we may also do something efficient but if and when you can, in any given week, if you send four or five of these quick, quick thank you notes using this beautifully printed thing that may only add to your work total of 10 – 15 minutes in a given week to send four or five of those. But the wisdom was in advance knowing it was necessary to get the lovely cards printed up. And I’ve followed that advice in my business since I’ve got my equivalent of those kinds of thank you cards and congratulations cards. Most weeks I get one or two of those out. And it makes such a difference at how I feel and connect with other people and I gather from other people. It makes them feel special.
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s a great example. And I think that whole thing like when I think about the solar aid letter that I received, it wasn’t a handwritten letter. Like they wrote a little PS and much the same as you know, I can let you go to a restaurant in North America and they always sign the receipt at the bottom. And that’s a really nice little personal touch. That doesn’t, it doesn’t take a lot of time. I also, I did hear it like, I remember hearing about a charity that at the beginning of every one of their meetings, they get people to do like a little note and a signature on a card. And the same at board meetings and things. So actually, it becomes part of the organisation. It spreads the load and you can have things that feel personal that are kind of done in advance. That’s, that’s kind of the cleverness of making something a bit personal but without taking up all that time.
So there is this extra angle to all of this, which I think needs to be pulled out. And the listeners, if you haven’t read this wonderful book called The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath, there is a really great example of what the British coffee shop chain Pret do. And I wrote about it in a blog the other day because I finished a long tiring day’s work in London, needed my cup of tea and cake before I got on the train. And the person that sorted it out for me as I was getting out my wallet out to pay, they said, ‘No, it’s in the house’. And I was completely baffled as to why a coffee shop chain would be giving me this, there must be a trick, but she said ‘you’ve probably had a long day. It’s my gift to you.’
And in that moment, I was utterly baffled and delighted. And you know, it really made my day. And I tweeted about it. I’ve told more than one person about it since. And in the book, The Power of Moments, the authors say, it wasn’t a random fluke that some naughty employee was doing. Its company policy that everyone who worked in Pret has a certain amount of budget in each given week, they’re allowed to give away a certain number of free value of free drinks. And it happens a lot when I’d say this at conferences, usually about a third of the room puts their hand up and says happened to them too. And what they say is the person who runs Pret said we knew we wanted to make people feel special, but we didn’t want to do it like a loyalty card schemes that just makes a process out of this thing. We wanted to keep it spontaneous.
So we made the policy that you’re allowed to do it every week. But the extra crucial, clever thing about it and the reason why I’m bringing it up now isn’t just the moment that is being created for me, the customer. It’s this extra power it has for the person who gets to give away free stuff every week. And in that moment of seeing Rob go from exhausted to baffled to joyful and getting free cake, I think it might have cheered the server up, you know, she was probably tired…You know, goodness knows she’s been on her feet a lot longer than I had. And in that moment, getting to be the good guy, and surprise someone with a nice thing they weren’t expecting. You know, retail is, a lot of it is hard, long hours, and the Pret person is smart to be doing it for that reason as well.
And the reason I’m saying this is, you know when you manage to get your whole team Rachel including the IT team and the data base person…in that moment. I think they acted like fundraisers even just an easy pleasant little fun thing with a cup of coffee. But in that moment, they were being fundraisers and they were focusing on caring about donors. And hopefully it was interesting. Overall a lot of our game as fundraisers is to help all of our charities become more interested in donors, care about the working harder to be donor centric.
And you know, there was someone on the individual giving mastery programme that I run with Craig Linton, who organised a little mini thankathon and she managed to persuade each of her trustees and several members of staff to make four or five phone calls to donors to thank them. That’s all it was. But what was so smart about it, she said, you know that people became more interested, helpful towards me for these other fundraising things, giving me the information or whatever because it has now been become part of their identity, I’d helped them practice being fundraisers. So that’s the other angle on when we can involve people, it helps our overall culture. Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve managed to organise many thankathons or just other versions of that.
I haven’t personally but I have worked with MAG International and I don’t take any credit for the thing – its them that did that, they got their trustees involved and it’s all a great thing and actually the comments that came back from the trustee because what we did do is we did a little exercise with Okay, what’s the return on investment on this and we did exactly what I did Practical Action… started to look at the financial side, but actually more important than the financial side of things so that the trustees that will say ‘actually, this made me feel really good and really, really got me involved’.
And I do believe that supporter experience is impossible to be done in a silo. The, you know, the person, the receptionist is one of the most important people in an organisation for delivering great supporter experience, because their first point Corps Volunteers are too and I love that, that pret example. And actually, it’s made me think I had exactly the same experience but on a train recently and I didn’t get charged for the upgrade that I was going for. And he was just like, well, if my company is taking care of you by giving you a special offer that I’m going to take in better care of you, and it’s on me. And that feeling was just amazing. And I read recently as well about a hotel chain that empowers their staff to solve problems by giving them a budget that they can spend how they like I think it’s 2000 pounds or dollars a year. And if they come across a problem, they’re empowered to solve it in the best way that they think, and that empowerment of people is so incredibly important because that’s where that’s where the magic happens.
One of the other lovely stories I like from the Power of Moments is of this particular, there’s a hotel in in the LA area that’s routinely in the top three of all hotels in the LA area. And the other two are these big, fancy famous names like the Hilton. And this one, if you go there, I mean, it’s not dirty, but it’s not a big flash place. You know, it hasn’t got an Olympic sized swimming pool and so on. It hasn’t got the most fancy latest furnishings, but they’re always rated right up at the top. And it’s because they’ve got this create magic moments strategy. And there’s lots of ways they do that, but just one example is by the swimming pool, there’s what they call the popsicle hotline. And if you’re there with your family swimming in the hotel and you fancy an ice cream you just go to the red bat phone / popsicle phone and you you pick it up and someone the other end answers ‘popsicle Help Line What would you like?’ and you say ‘I want a strawberry one please, strawberry ice cream’. And then you know two minutes later a waiter wearing white gloves brings you an ice cream on a silver tray.
Oh my gosh. That’s the little things – it doesn’t have to cost a fortune. And you know, there’s so many stories and wonderful little things that actually make a huge difference.
Yeah, I think from studying this more and more I now do a course called WOW Your Donors which is all about this ethos and I highly recommend any way for the listener to check if you’re interested in this way of thinking and the cold, hard commercial value in making time to strategically work more this way and create a culture where it’s possible and encouraged for your people to work this way. Then I would really recommend a wonderful read called The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath. And we’d better wrap up fairly soon Rachel if people like these ideas and they want to follow up more or to talk to you get more advice ‘How could people seek you out Rachel?’
So on LinkedIn I’m not the only Rachel Hunnybun because my sister in law is also called Rachel but I’m the fundraising Rachel Hunnybun on LinkedIn. And you can find me on Twitter as well. I’m Rachel_Hunny and obviously through Blakely who I’m working with at the moment and there’s a there’s an opportunity to get in touch with me through the wonderful world that’s Blakeley.
Fantastic. So again, a huge thank you, Rachel for not only making time but coming along and sharing such helpful stories, and examples and bits of advice. I really appreciate it. I look forward to meeting you at a conference soon in the new year. Until, till that time, have a really good afternoon fundraising and we will speak to you again soon.
Absolutely. Thank you.
So there you go. I hope you found Rachel’s findings helpful. And we’ve given you just a tiny bit more positive impetus with your own efforts to create great experiences for your existing supporters. If you’re curious about any of the in-house fundraising master-classes, or the one to one coaching, or the mastery programmes that we offer, then again, all of that information is on brightspotfundraising.co.uk. If you’d like to follow up on any of these ideas, do check out the show notes on our website. And I’ll also put a link in there to that excellent book, The Power of moments by Chip and Dan Heath, which as I say, has really helped me to see stewardship as an opportunity to add wow factor to the supporter experience. If you found today’s episode helpful, we’ve got lots more valuable stories and strategies coming up in the series. So if you don’t want to miss out, please do remember to subscribe to the podcast today. Thank you so much for listening. And I look forward to sharing more great stories and ideas next time.