One of the biggest headaches for many fundraisers is encouraging colleagues see things from the donor or partners’ point of view, and to want to take actions that would be good for relationships with those supporters (and therefore good for fundraising growth).
And in corporate partnership fundraising, we know that great partnerships are never possible if they’re solely driven by your own desire and hard work. They can only happen if they are genuinely a partnership between two organisations. But with many competing priorities in a charity, its clearly not always easy to get colleagues to see the value in wanting to do things that you believe would serve the partnership or fundraising project. They have plenty of other important issues competing for their attention.
In this episode, Bright Spot founder Rob Woods talks to corporate partnerships and fundraising expert Ben Swart, who is a co-trainer and a coach to many fundraisers on our long-standing Corporate Partnerships Mastery Programme.
In the interview, Ben and Rob talk about practical things you can do that increase your chances of finding common ground and positive outcomes with colleagues from other teams in your charity, so you can make more progress with less stress.
If you want to share this episode because you think it will help other charities – THANK YOU! – we are both on Linked In and on twitter, where Ben is @benswart and I am @woods_rob.
If you’d like more powerful strategies to help you raise funds during the pandemic, I cover lots of helpful tactics in my free E-book: Power Through The Pandemic – Seven ways to raise money with major donors, corporates and trusts, even now. You can download it for FREE here: brightspotfundraising.co.uk/power
Transform your skill and confidence in corporate partnership fundraising.
To go much deeper into these and dozens of other strategies, and get help in implementing them, check out the Corporate Partnerships Mastery Programme.
‘From the company’s point of view, they’re noticing that the campaigns they’re doing with charities are more likely to be viewed online, more likely to be viewed for longer and more likely to be shared.’
‘The times when I’ve managed to have a calm conversation with the other person to solve the difficult issues, is when I have a hundred percent assumed that it’s something that I could have done differently.’
Transcript of Episode 58
Hello, and welcome to Episode 58 of the Fundraising Bright Spot’s Podcast. This is the show for anyone who works in fundraising and who wants ideas, and a dash of inspiration to help you enjoy your job and raise more money, especially during the pandemic.
And, in today’s show, I’m so pleased to get a chance to chat to my friend Ben Swart, and my colleague at Bright Spot. Ben’s worked with us at Bright Spot for many years now. He’s an expert and very experienced Corporate Fundraiser. Ben, how are you?
I’m really good. Thank you, Rob. I’m really pleased to be spending some time talking about my favorite subject as well.
Yeah, and I know you’ve been really busy recently, because we’re nearing the end of our Corporate Partnerships Mastery Program. So you’ve been doing a lot of the coaching for Corporate Fundraisers through that. So, and this is what we’re going to talk about today is that a key theme, which we often find really useful to give people some helpful advice and encouragement on.
The topic is to do with the challenges of helping your colleagues within a charity, care about fundraising, care about the donor’s point of view and the company’s point of view. And it’s a cause of great frustration, especially for Corporate Fundraisers, but actually I think the same is, these kinds of frustrations happen for you, whatever kind of a fundraiser you are, just in terms of introducing us to that idea.
You know, you and I both had these challenges for a lot of our career. They don’t go away, but over time, I think we’ve learned some tactics to help handle them, and ways of looking at it, that reduces stress for all concerned, and helps the Charity get better results. What would you say to introduce us to this, as a challenge?
So do you know what, one of the reasons that we thought of it this week, is because it was just a reoccurring theme, in many of the coaching calls and whenever… So I’m part of Corporate Partnerships Leaders, new business leader’s group, and we catch up maybe once a month, certainly pre pandemic. We even had a coffee and that now we do it virtually.
And this topic of, it feels like other people in my organization, are not always out to help me, as much as I feel like they should. And at times it felt a bit like, maybe I’m just the unlucky one who has this personality in my Charity. Who’s just too bolshy and assertive and I can’t seem to shift them.
But actually, when we started getting together and talking about it, we realized that we all seem to have this challenge at various points, that our colleagues, sometimes in our digital team like the Social Media team, maybe in our Comms team, the services team. Occasionally it felt like we were trying to achieve completely different things, within the same organization.
And it felt like we were clashing far more often, than we needed to do. And in talking it through both with the people who were on the Mastery Course and with other colleagues, we realized that actually, there’s a couple of things that we could do, to try and make our lives slightly easier, and their lives easier too. But yeah, it’s that so often it feels like it’s a personality issue or, “Oh gosh, I just wish they weren’t the person.”
Yeah. And I guess it’s worth saying at this early stage, this is a podcast primarily designed to help people who are fundraisers for a Charity. But the truth is, within any organization, within any Charity, there are different objectives at play. Everyone’s doing their best, whether through the way they do communications, or service delivery or finance or reception, there are many different areas within a Charity.
Most of us, we’re trying to achieve the same overall mission, but there’s different issues at play. So inevitably you and I, a lot of our background is in fundraising. So we see it as the fundraiser’s point of view, but the truth is we might be listened to by a Chief Exec or a Board Member, or someone who works in communications or finance.
And they’ve got their equivalent version of, “Why doesn’t fundraising care more deeply about?” So, at the outset, let’s see this as a challenge for anyone who works in a Charity, rather than especially a fundraising specific one, or a Corporate Fundraising specific one.
Absolutely. And I’m reminded of … So for those that don’t know, I’ve been in supported care, I’ve been in Major Gift fundraising, helping philanthropists. I’ve been on the side of people and training and HR, and in corporate partnerships and leadership too. And I’m reminded of about eight to 10 years ago when I heard Tanya Steel talk, who is the now Chief Executive of WWF.
And at that point, she was the Director of Fundraising and Comms, at Save the Children. And she was talking about, “No Child Born to Die,” because that particular campaign had been incredibly successful. And we thought she was there to tell us about the innovative ideas that come from making it successful.
But actually, a whole host of her speech and presentation were about how proud she was, that the people in lots of different teams, were actually working together as one unit, which in an organization, the size of Save the Children, I can imagine isn’t always easy. She said she was particularly proud because when she joined the Charity sector, having come from the profit sector. She said when she worked outside of the Charity sector at a company that was for profit, almost everyone knew why they were there.
They were there because everything they were doing, was about making the product cheaper and the more profit and better customer service, it was those three things. It was really simple what they were there for. And so she said, when the organization wanted everyone to come together for something, it felt easier. And she said, she naively thought when she came across to our sector, our Woolly-Jumpered sector, naively thought, “It will be that easy, won’t it, because we will all want to get on in harmony.”
And she said, actually really early on, she realized that each team at Save the Children and probably elsewhere, each team was waking up with their own reasons why they were there that day, with their own aims. And what she thought was, “I just need to tell people what I’d like them to do,” it didn’t work. And she really struggled for her first half a year.
And then she said she just flipped probably, I think it was with the help of one of her coaches and mentors. She flipped a switch to say, “I don’t want to drag people, I want to try and take them with me. How can I understand how to help them, so I take them with me on this journey, instead of just pushing them?”
And I remember that moment, it was like a sort of penny dropping moment for me. Because, when I thought back to all the times when internal challenges or other colleagues, who have struggled with. When things have suddenly changed, it came from when we were beginning to say, “Actually, let’s stop butting horns,” let’s actually spend a bit more time understanding them.
And in a moment I’d love to get your take practically, on how can we actually do that? Because lots of us, know that’s true and we would even give others the advice that that’s what they should do, when they’ve got this kind of challenge.
But I know that in practice doing it, when it’s you, that is not being listened to or whose reasonable needs are not being paid attention to, I know it’s not always that easy to implement. So I’d love to get your take practically, on some of the things that you do, and when you’re coaching our clients you do.
But just before that, I think you were saying about a group of Corporate Fundraisers, who come together, and your take on this challenge.
Yeah, absolutely. So I think like I said, we come together and there’s recurring themes. You know, “How much should we value our brand for and X, Y, Z ?” And the theme that comes up quite a lot, is the one example actually. It’s quite specific was, we were talking about a campaign, having a partnership, having a Corporate Partnership.
And you were desperate to try on Social Media, on Twitter and on LinkedIn and on Facebook. One of the particular members of the group was talking about how all they wanted to do, and one of the things they talked through with their companies, was to advertise the product more, that if you bought it, money went towards the Charity.
And then somebody else actually said, “And you know what, I’m in the middle of a Staff Vote campaign at the moment,” you know, like a Charity of the Year, thing. “And all I want to do, is to get us jumping up and down, being as excited as I am, that we should be winning this partnership. It’s not small partnership, Ben it’s like a six, seven figure partnership.”
“And yet my digital team they’re really fighting with us about putting this stuff on Twitter and they keep telling us, that we can’t do it. And so inevitably we’re having to go up hierarchy and forced them,” the opposite of what Tanya was saying.
And it was really interesting, I’m not going to give away her name or the Charity that she worked for, but one of the people around the table, said that she had the same problem, until after the Staff Vote campaign. They sat down with the digital team, to understand a bit more about actually, “Let’s just do a wash-up,” let’s understand how the pitch went and lots of other things but, “Let’s do a wash up internally with the teams that we were talking to,” especially if we wished it had been a bit easier, like if we’d butted horns.
And she said in that meeting, the Head of Digital just started telling her things, that she had no idea about. So if you didn’t know this already, his entire job is based on, every time they write a tweet and like Twitter is unbelievably analytical, right? You can understand from the moment you push, “Send,” how a tweet is performing. How many eyes have viewed it, how many engagements it’s had, how many times they clicked on your profile, how after that tweet, if you’ve got more followers.
And the Head of Digital said, “Look, the one thing I am graded on, is number of followers that we have, can I increase it? And amount of engagement from our tweets? Like when we tweet, can it be liked? Can it be shared? Will people click on it?
And she said, he presented them with this graph that showed, “Here’s what a normal tweet does, in terms of followers and engagement and share. Here is what happens every time I did a tweet, about encouraging people who worked for blah company to vote for us,” and it just nose-dives.
Like the engagement was a quarter of what it needed to be, they actually lost followers. And it was, she said, it was the first time she was just like, “Oh, I see why every time I was asking him to do these things, why he wouldn’t do it.”
And I guess what’s interesting is that, from that point she then was like, “Well.” We said, “What did you do?” And she said, “Well actually, we wanted to know what is it that makes a tweet engaging? Now, help me,” you’re the digital fundraising expert. We’re the Corporate Fundraising, “but what makes the tweet engaging?”
And there are a whole host of things, but one of it, at its core was storytelling. You know, people who are followers, I guess, think about it. People who follow the Charity, care about the beneficiaries, care about the problem they’re trying to solve. They like the stories and the real examples, of what the work does.
So actually we need to work harder. She needs to work harder, in Corporate Fundraising to say, “How do I link my tweets, my action of Staff Vote type stuff, to a story?” Like, “Oh, okay. If you want the story, why don’t I try and do nothing but the story, right?”
And anyway, it was really interesting, exactly the same as conversations I’ve been having with lots of our Mastery people, this time round, actually Rob. You know teams, not digital teams, but teams who are experts in their field, then if we’re talking about animal charities, you’ve got people who are absolute experts at the law behind what makes a company that sells animal products safer.
Who aren’t happy with actions that a corporate partner has done. And my work on the call I think, is to try and help the fundraiser to work as hard as possible, to just ask ourselves, “What is life like from the services, from the policy that leads, point of view. And why is it that they see it this way?”
And Rob I’ve been on enough Bright Spot courses, to know that it’s the classic beach ball metaphor that you use of, “If I’m holding a beach ball, the colored segments that I can see, will be different to the segments that the person opposite me can see, they just can’t see it from my point of view. I can’t see it from theirs, until I actively try to.”
And so, I know what you were after tactics, but with this problem coming up time and time again, it was really interesting, how actually when we pause, and on a coaching call, or right now, person listening to this podcast, when we pause and ask ourselves, point number one, “Who is it internally, that I’m butting heads with?”
And then the next thing you’ve got to do is Classic Test Drives. I think classic conversations is a tactic to, get in front of them and understand why? What is it about the situation you’re asking for, that makes their life so much harder? What is it that makes their life easier? You know, a bit like that Head of Digital explaining really clearly.
I mean, not everything will be that clear, I don’t think. But explaining really clearly, “What makes a great tweet? What doesn’t make it great tweet?” When you get under the skin of it, and to be really clear, “You are not going to get this answer from an email. You are not going to be able to give them a Survey Monkey and hope that they fill it in.”
You’re going to get this because you are a fundraiser, you’re a relationship builder, you’re emotionally intelligent. You’re going to get that time with them, and you’re going to cut beneath, what they would normally say, and understand “Just tell me really though, what is it? What’s going on for you?” And you’ll notice that there will be two or three things.
Yeah. Such sound advice. And I just wanted to jump in and say a couple of things. In my experience, if you allow it to already get into red hot disagreement, it’s already a bit late. Now, you can save the day by requesting a chat on the phone or in the current age, maybe a Zoom call. But the best thing of all, is rather than to expect to be able to influence someone by email, and then say, “Yes, and it’s all done.”
If there are these areas of contention that your instinct suggest, “This could go wrong.” Proactively seeking out a conversation in the first place, rather than letting it turn into a tit-for-tat, it’s already going wrong, source of conflict. And the second thing I would suggest is, I’ve learned that there’s a certain way of asking that question about, seeking to find out more. And if at some level you’re already annoyed and you come across as defensive, and your tone is, “Why is that? What’s your problem?”
Now, you wouldn’t say those words, but if at any way, the person you’re seeking to better understand, receives that judgment or defensiveness in you, already I think they’re less likely to truly open up, and in a relaxed way tell you, what’s really on their mind, and what the real challenges are, rather than it may be that the knee-jerk official sounding reasons why.
And what I’ve found is, it’s almost impossible for us, to positively influence someone in the sense of help them, genuinely want to do an action, rather than feel coerced. It’s almost impossible, if they feel judged. So, you have to take a step back, and even though this might be a frustrating or stressful situation for you and your ability to get your job done. You have to find a way to be calm enough, to embrace the truth, that the other person probably is just trying to do their job, to the best of their ability.
I don’t yet fully understand what their model of the world is, or what their challenges are. But I’ve got a curiosity to genuinely want to understand. And if that’s your mindset and your energy, I think you’re more likely to proactively seek a conversation, where we can be honest with each other. And be in that way of seeking information. Because you’re curious, I think they’re most likely to receive the signal that you’re not judging them, you genuinely would like to know.
Yeah, absolutely Rob. And, it feels so easy to say this, when we’re not in the thick of that frustration. But you reminded me, that the times when I’ve managed to get that calm a conversation with them, as quickly as possible, have been when I have a hundred percent assumed that it’s something that I could have done differently.
Like, even if I’m like, “I still can’t believe they acted in that way.” Like, I’m not saying, I believe that it’s a hundred percent sure that it’s something I could have done differently, but that’s framed how I have encouraged the conversation too. Like, I get a sense that there are some things that could have been done differently from our side too, yeah.
Yeah. And a thing years ago that really helped me, and I wrote it down. I can’t remember which book I learned it from, but it was this notion of taking responsibility. And the author was saying, “Whenever there’s a conflict, take responsibility.”
And in my head I was thinking, “I’m not taking responsibility, clearly this was not my fault.” And then the author said in the next paragraph, “To take responsibility does not mean you’re saying you did a thing wrong, or it’s your fault. To take responsibility, means it is with you and your control, to do something differently, to increase the chances that you get a bit better results, for you and for them.”
So that really helped me. I didn’t have to say, “Oh, it’s all my fault,” if genuinely I don’t really believe that to be true. But to embrace the truth that potentially I could do something differently, to increase the chances that between the two of us, we take things in a more productive direction.
Definitely, and it always makes me think of I’m going to get the brand completely wrong, but I think it’s Domino’s pizza who say that, “Treat every customer as if they’re worth $10,000, because that’s the lifetime value of them.” And that shifts the way that a Domino’s pizza person treats the customer.
In fundraising, I feel like it’s, “Treat every one of your colleagues, like they’re a million pound donor.” Like, how would you act if you knew that this conversation and this person, it could be the reason that the unlocked the next million pounds.
Yeah, that’s brilliant. And I think what’s so interesting about this topic is, lots of fundraisers who come on our courses, have become really good at doing a version of this, in relation to the corporate partner, the major donor, the trust, or the individual giver. They work really hard at this first step.
It’s just the something about when it’s internal, in some sense, because we think we shouldn’t have to. Surely our whole organization, should automatically see the value, of treating partners and donors in a more enlightened way. It’s that disconnect with our expectation of what should happen here, compared to what does happen here, that causes us to skip this crucial first step of taking responsibility.
And in our corporate, and our Major Gifts Courses, a key thing we teach and we help people get better at is, if you really seek to positively influence someone, first seek to understand and appreciate their world. Listen as much as you can, and then after you’ve understood and appreciated their world, whatever you’ve got to say, say it informed by what you’ve learned about and cared about, to do with their world.
And that largely, is the point we’re making here. What’s so interesting is, often it gets missed out in the context of our internal relationships, because we think we shouldn’t have to. The second thing that needs pointing out is, sometimes people say, “Well, I have understood.” And I say, “But have you appreciated?” So, there’s two bits to the concept.
If you really, really care about getting a good result on your fundraising project, first seek to not only understand the other person, the colleagues model of the world, but also to appreciate it. And that second one is often what’s missing, and why it comes across, like we’re judging them or criticizing them.
It’s that second one, is it’s not only to say, “Oh, they’ve got these different targets. Yeah, but they should see my targets.” But, to emotionally appreciate, how tough it can be doing whatever role, how challenging it could be to be judged on X, and also expected to do Y. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything, but to emotionally appreciate that it may be tough. Even just doing that, often causes a big shift in our energy, approaching these conversations.
Absolutely Rob. And I guess that’s back to those tactics of, number one, “Who is it that you would like to have a better working relationship with?” Then number two, “Why is it, that you think they are doing this?” You might not even need the meeting to begin with. That is quite so often what we talk about, on our coaching calls is, put yourself in their shoes.
“Why do you think they’re acting in this way?” And you’re right, when you start appreciating their world, you begin to realize how you can be the bridge across. Because then the third thing is, “Maybe you do it on your own, or maybe you do it in conversation with them.” You begin to realize how you, how we can help them, get what they need to get to.
And when you find that middle ground, whether that is on the coffee catch-ups that we had, where our colleague realizing actually, “Well, what I can put story into this, that means that it’s more engaging or whether it’s something else, what is the compromise that you can find, that means that it works?” It will be out there.
And there is also the third thing, fourth thing even, which is … There’s a book, I think it’s called “Decisive” by Chip Heath. And it always asks the question of, “Actually, do you need it in the first place?” One thing that fascinates me about Staff Votes is I’m hugely competitive. And I think that lots of other Charities are too.
But, unless I have yet to find a partnership that’s been won, because a Charity has tweeted. And that tweet has been picked up by someone, who has leapt from the tweet, to intern. The truth of it, is actually in some cases, we’re fighting the fight, because it’s just what we’ve always done. Rather than asking ourselves, whether we really should, in the first place.
But anyway, that’s a side point. Pause and think through, “Who is it I need to influence? How can I understand them? How can I appreciate them? And then, how do we compromise on what it is we need to do next?” And from that, I’ve got coaching clients now, who the commercial side of their organization, they weren’t talking to them at all.
They were constantly butting heads. They were both talking to the same companies at the same time. And now, they’re realizing how they work together, they’re coauthoring proposals, they’re co-delivering events together, because they see how it works, and they’re making progress. Life is just significantly easier for them, once we stopped drawing a battle line in the middle, and sort of dive over to their side.
Yes Ben, this is all making sense to me. And at one level, I see it to be true. But in order to help me with more conviction, connect that it’s worth potentially changing my view, of why my current headache is happening. If only I have to do things a little differently.
Could you give us a couple of examples, of the shifts that have happened in practice, when you or a fundraiser your coach, has actually followed through on these steps. Maybe starting with what was different about the negotiation with the Social Media team, you were mentioning at the beginning, and then anything else you can think of.
Yeah, absolutely. The Social Media team, you’re right. Once it sounded like the moment that it became clear, just how dangerous it was, to do nothing but tweet about Charity of the Year, for followers and engagement, but that what may great content was stories, especially if linked to brands that their audience cares about.
They came up with this agreement that, “Fine, we will co-author with you, tweets and content that we know work, to do with this subject.” So a, they said that they would now make it more story-like, they would deliberately find employees to talk a bit more, so that it’s a bit of a real person, there’s a story around it. Or they’d use beneficiaries, or they’d talk about, if we won the money, where that went? A lot more than just, “Please Vote.”
And the second thing is that, it enabled them to then say, “Okay, if we promise to do this, how many times,” knowing you can’t saturate your Twitter feed, “how many times is it okay for you to tweet about this? And when’s the best times?” And out of a flat, “No,” with very good reason why.
They ended up with, “Well, we will agree to tweet 10 times for you, over a period of four days, and together we’ll work on what that content looks like, which will get the most engagement.” And so suddenly you’ve gone from forcing them to do bad tweets that don’t work for anyone, to co-author tweets relatively regularly, that work far, far better than anything else. And that we’re actually picked up on, by their current supporters, and tweeted and engaged, and started beating the other rates too.
So, what I love about that, Ben is this middle way is not a compromise, in the sense of a lukewarm version of the result I wanted. Because you take the trouble to take responsibility, try and understand, appreciate, and then together find ways to get what you both want.
You end up with a better result, because “surprise, surprise,” you’re working with the expertise of your colleague, who knows about Social Media or finance or service delivery or whatever. There’s probably a reason why they were initially saying, “No.”
And within that reason, there’s the potential for you to benefit, from their expertise and their wisdom, so I love that. I know that there’s a Charity that’s attached to a sports club and they made great progress for instance, in this area. Could you tell me the gist of what the difficulty was and how this approach helped?
Yeah, definitely. So, it’s a sports club and especially when the pandemic first hit and all sports stopped. And because they’re a sports club, they’ve having lots of commercial revenue and lots of commercial ties, sponsors of t-shirts, sponsors on hoardings, sponsors of beer, et cetera. Without people in a stadium, it’s very hard for them to generate commercial interests. So suddenly that team was under huge pressure.
The exact same companies that the commercial team wanted to talk to, were the ones that the Foundation associated them, wanted to talk to too, for good reason. It’s a similar sort of audience, but they were competitive, and either preventing them from talking to them.
Or both in the end, talking to the same company at the same time, which we all know, “Oh, it’s damaging and painful.” But what they wanted, was for their audience, for their clients, for their prospects, to get more engagement from them.
They wanted to make sure, that the audience they promised, that would turn up to a match, they wanted to ensure that they were engaging, with the content. And so the commercial team, so a bit stuck, because there was literally no sport and no way to do it.
But what we know and what we teach in our Corporate Mastery Course, is that the stories we tell, the work that we do, is hugely engaging to the right audience, especially if they happen to be connected to this sports team. So the Foundation were finding, that when they talked about their work on Social Media, and in other ways, the very audience that the commercial team wanted to talk to, absolutely loved it.
And so it was almost precisely, “The reason that you’re scared to work with us, is that very reason why you should work with us.” And so that’s when they started looking at events, they could run together. Looking at ways that they could look at both of their pipelines together and say, “Who could we go for?”
And actually what they found Rob, was that when they approached one of the commercial team’s biggest clients, with an idea of how they could help the beneficiaries of the Foundation, how they could help with engagement in the local community, during the pandemic?
The content they made around that, the videos that they made, whether that was emailed out or put on Twitter or Facebook, got five times more engagement than what the commercial team had been putting out before. And suddenly the commercial teams were like, “This is exactly what we want.”
Fantastic, Ben, I know we need to get things finished. Thank you so much for sharing your ideas, of why this challenge can happen, in the Charities large and small. And your tactics you’ve found, to really help. Best of luck with your fundraising for now, Ben. I look forward to catching up with you very soon. But for now, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your tips.
Well, I hope you found this discussion helpful. And if you’d like to see a summary and the full transcript of our discussion, you can find that on the podcast page of our website, which is brightspotfundraising.co.uk.
And if you’re a Corporate Fundraiser or a Major Donor Fundraiser, and you’d like to grow not only your skill and your confidence, but also your results this year, do check out our Corporate Partnerships Mastery and our Major Gifts Mastery Programs, which are starting in April 2021.
Over the last seven years, I’ve created and honed these practical six month programs, precisely because the energizing impact of one-off courses and conferences, usually fades within a few weeks of attending. But of course, to grow your results, we found you actually need to keep solving the problems and keep taking action.
So, the programs work precisely, because they give you not only the powerful strategies, but also the support and the help with the problem solving, in putting those techniques into practice, across six months.
If you’re curious to find out a bit more, go to brightspotfundraising.co.uk/services, and then scroll down to find the page for Corporate Partnerships Mastery or Major Gifts Mastery Program. And if you enjoyed today’s show, remember to hit “Subscribe” today, so that you never miss an episode.
Thank you so much to everyone who’s been sharing this podcast. And if you’d like to get in touch or share this episode on social media, Ben and I have both on LinkedIn and on Twitter. Ben is @benswart and I am @woods_rob.
Finally, thank you so much for listening today. Until next time, stay safe and best of luck with all your internal influencing and your fundraising.